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Yes Evan Chandler Used Sodium Amytal

November 7, 2010

I was going to wait to do this post until David was finished with the Frozen In Time transcripts but I think I should do it now just because so many questions need to be answered. The first one I will get out of the way is the Amytal Sodium story. In the book Michael Jackson Was My Lover there are a few documents, among them is Consent to Administer Anesthesia which I will show you below. It is a basic consent and for those of you who cannot decipher the writing I will do that for you. It says on the second line intravenous solution. This is not correct, it should have the name of the anesthesia not Intravenous Solution that could be one of about a dozen things like Normal Saline, D5 W, D51/2, Lactated Ringers, and D51/2+ NS just to give a few examples. Those are IV Solutions and they are what hang on a pole at the patient’s bedside and are usually in bags of 1000-1500mls. I don’t know why anyone would write IV solution where the anesthetic was supposed to go unless they didn’t want anyone to know what they were doing.  The line below that reads: Including but not limited to fetal demise and death. This is standard language for Consent to Administer Anesthesia because almost all generals have those risks. You don’t have these risks associated with an ordinary IVsolution they are basically differnt body fluids. You generally don’t know if someone is allergic to an anesthesia  until it is administered which is why you have them sign this in the first place, because when something goes wrong in an operating room that is usually what it is.

Another thing that might be important to know is that it is not recommended as a pediatric anesthesia and does not have dosage recommendations for a pediatric patient which is what Jordan was. In that case I would wonder why a father who was a Dental professional, merely pulling a retained baby tooth would even consider such a thing, when there were about a million other things he could have done. One example would be to pull it very quickly and it would have been over. I don’t think Evan had very good intentions when he gave him that drug do you?

Well now that we have established that Amytal Sodium was probably administered we have to ask what day did this happen and it has the date in the bottom left corner. It says 7/16/93 or July 16th. I am going to show you the first page of the now famous letter from Dr. Mathis Abrams that is dated on the same day by mail and references a call from Barry Rothman on July 14th. This makes it 2 days before the administration of the Amytal Sodium, and before they “knew” what had happened. That means they contacted him on suspicion alone, or as Geraldine Hughes and Mary Fisher say because Barry Rothman knew how to do this.

Well now that the planting of false memories has been established we need to find out how Evan Chandler would have known to use this drug and what happened that made him change his mind? Yes you’re right I am going to show you. In California and later the whole country there was a ground breaking case going on at the time. It was the case of Gary Ramona. His daughter accused him of Sexual abuse after going to a therapist and they used the drug Amytal Sodium or Sodium Amytal it is the same thing. He sued the therapist’s and won after losing everything he had, his job, his home and his family. The saddest part is that the daughter still believes it, so what does that mean for Jordan?

Father Wins Suit in ‘False Memory’ Case

May 14, 1994|MARIA L. La GANGA | TIMES STAFF WRITER

In a landmark case that could fundamentally alter how therapists do their jobs–and could increase their liability–a Napa Valley Superior Court jury ruled Friday that two Orange County therapists implanted false memories of child abuse in a patient and wrongly harmed her father.

The jury decided on a 10-2 vote that therapist Marche Isabella, Dr. Richard Rose, chief of psychiatry at Western Medical Center in Anaheim, and the hospital were negligent in their treatment of Holly Ramona, now 23. It awarded her father $500,000 in damages.

The case has received national attention because it marks the first time that a court has allowed a therapist to be sued for implanting false memories. It has been at the forefront of debate over recovered memory therapy, the most divisive issue to hit the mental health profession in decades.

Gary Ramona, who Holly said repeatedly raped her between the ages of 5 and 8, has been “totally vindicated” by the decision, the father’s attorney, Richard Harrington, said in an interview Friday night.

“They found that the memories that Gary Ramona molested Holly Ramona were false,” Harrington said. “F-A-L-S-E. False. And they found that these defendants were negligent, which they were.”

Rose called the decision “a very strange verdict.” Hospital representatives said they were not aware of the verdict.

But the jury did not award Gary Ramona the $8 million that he sought in damages and lost wages. Instead, the panel granted Ramona $250,000 for wages lost to date and $250,000 for future losses. When the incest allegations surfaced in 1990, Ramona lost his $400,000-a-year job as a vice president for worldwide marketing at Robert Mondavi Winery, and his family fell apart.

“This is a tremendous victory,” Gary Ramona said Friday. “This verdict means that the jury saw what I’ve always known: that Holly’s supposed memories are the result of defendants’ drugs and quackery, not anything I did.”

Here is a link to the entire article

https://acrobat.com/#d=2c5F6az2FayK1JniT9Dsuw

You will notice that the date of the article and the resolution of the Lawsuit was May 14th 1994. After this hit national news in the following days Evan could hardly say that he had used this drug on Jordan and that is when he decided to tell the truth, because it is not a truth serum, but a drug that, when administered will cause false information to be planted into the memory. Especially when the person is also fed false information of being tape recorded and videotaped by the person doing the questioning. Evan also knew that Jordan could never be cross examined because if he was and told the story of being put under anesthesia for pulling a baby tooth their case would go up in smoke.

Now  that we have established that there exists a great probability that Sodium Amytal was used by Evan on Jordan  stay tuned for the rest of the documents that are in the book. I know it is hard to believe that Victor Gutierrez had these all along and no one has ever read it but I will tell you that until I could scan them in and blow them up they were unreadable in the book because of the size of the print.What would you like to see next Larry Feldmans internal memorandum and the retainer agreement or Evans  handwritten notes and the drawing “description”?

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44 Comments leave one →
  1. Susan permalink
    January 4, 2012 7:57 am

    Hi guys;

    Forgive me if this has already been posted – LunaJo67 has uploaded the verbal interview Mary Fischer (“Was Michael Jackson Framed?” GQ) gave to Greta Van Sustern in 2003. This is on LunaJo67’s site, but I put it here for reference. Hope that is OK.

  2. December 3, 2011 7:30 am

    I thought this Jordan topic would be the best place for the below article:
    I am still not convinced Jordan wasn’t a willing participate to the extortion, but what if?

    “Woman: Psychologist implanted horrific memories” December 3, 2011 (AP)

    “The memories that came flooding back were so horrific that Lisa Nasseff says she tried to kill herself: She had been raped several times, had multiple personalities and took part in satanic rituals involving unthinkable acts. She says she only got better when she realized they weren’t real.”

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/woman-psychologist-implanted-horrific-memories-15076496

  3. lynande51 permalink*
    June 9, 2011 5:35 pm

    IV solution can be anything yes Robinul could be given IV but it has no anesthic or analgesic properties all it does is dry secretions so it would not be given alone for a tooth.

  4. shelly permalink
    June 9, 2011 5:31 pm

    @lynande,

    It’s what I believe too but could you explain to me what means IV solution, I read that Robinul can be injected.

  5. lynande51 permalink*
    June 9, 2011 4:30 pm

    Shelly it was something else other than what they say because the 2 drugs that DD mention are not an IV solution.

  6. Alison permalink
    June 9, 2011 9:58 am

    I think also isn’t it that if he was reported to have been given SA it would mean he couldn’t testify in court as it would be considered unreliable testimony and they didn’t want to go to court to tell their lies?

    • June 9, 2011 5:40 pm

      “Isn’t it that if he was reported to have been given SA it would mean he couldn’t testify in court as it would be considered unreliable testimony and they didn’t want to go to court to tell their lies?”

      Alison, yes, I remember our Lynette explaining it – the testimony obtained by means of Sodium Amytal is null and void in court as the chances that the drug produced false memories are too big.

      I bet that the Chandlers would have used this pretext for Jordan not to testify in court (both civil and criminal) so the fact that Larry Feldman finally managed to reach an agreement with MJ after twisting his hands for so long was a real blessing for them. It is no incident that they initially demanded $30 mln. and then went down to $15 mln – they were very much afraid that Michael would really take the case as far as the criminal trial! However when Michael’s lawyer Bert Fields had to go it seems that the new team which replaced him did not even try to do anything for Michael – being friends with Larry Feldman Johnnie Cochran started immediate negotiations.

  7. shelly permalink
    June 9, 2011 8:46 am

    My question was more about the VG document which says “intravenous solution” for the type of anesthesia. Unless the document is false, it means Torbiner gave Jordan something else.

  8. lynande51 permalink*
    June 9, 2011 3:30 am

    Shelly, You can be put to sleep with enough of anything even Vistaril. Do I think they gave SA to Jordan? It would appear that way but then apearances with the Chandlers are not at all what they seem. It is convenient that it was a primary tooth (baby tooth) that had to be extracted because once the tooth is removed and the Secondary teeth are in place and there is no evidence of a tooth even being pulled. EC would have known that because he was a dentist. The whole story is almost too detailed and you can tell it is from someone who knows health and dentistry.
    There is also a thought that the SA was used as an excuse by them as to how the story came out. At the time in California there was a highly publicized story about a young woman named Holly Ramona whose therapist used SA and then produced false memories that resulted in her accusing her father of sexual abuse. The father sued the therapist for the damage it did in his life and won in May of 1994. That was how the world found out that SA was in fact not a “truth serum as previously believed but produced false memories.
    It is also important to note that the date on it coincides with their story. The thing about the date that Jordan allegedly made this revelation to his father is a week after he went to live with him and 30 days before he went to see Dr. Mathis Abrams.That would be plenty of time for someone to learn a script and get certain details down. Also it should be considered that in that first week Evan could have been relentlessly telling Jordan that some day soon Michael would loose interest in him which is the line of Gutierrez thinking. He might have been just jealous enough to believe it and in an attempt to make sure that no one could be around Michael he intitally named Brett, Wade and Mac.

  9. shelly permalink
    June 9, 2011 12:38 am

    So nobody can be put to sleep with only Vistaril? In the Gardner interview he said he was put to sleep.

  10. lynande51 permalink*
    June 8, 2011 11:49 pm

    Shelly, I haven’t believed DD’s medications listed as given to Jordan because I know what they are. Robinul is an anticholinergic. It is used during surgery to dry secretions. It does not have sedative effects but would give the person some serious dry mouth it would be indicated in oral surgery but not merely and extraction of a primary tooth. Vistaril is a sedative used with anesthesia as a pre-anesthesia adjunct and used to ease tension. It does not come in injectable form it is oral capsules and oral solution only. There would be no need for Dr. Torbiner to administer that since Jordan could swallow it.

  11. shelly permalink
    June 8, 2011 11:01 pm

    I just read that Dimond claimed that in her book

    “On page 62 of “Be Careful Who You Love”, Dimond says that:

    “Dr. Torbiner’s own written records from July 16, 1993 state that the boy was given a combination of Robinul and Vistaril. Contrary to what Fisher suggested, there is no reference in Dr. Torbiner’s records to the barbiturate Sodium Amytal.”

    • lcpledwards permalink
      June 9, 2011 1:03 am

      @ Shelly
      If Dr. Torbiner really gave Jordan Chandler any sodium amytal, do you think he would have made a record of it? According to Dimond’s logic, because Dr. Torbiner didn’t make a record of it, he obviously didn’t use sodium amytal! Well, what about the other drugs that he gave to his other patients illegally, for which he was fired from his job? Do you think he kept accurate records of those drugs?

      To me, this is a non-issue, because whether Jordan was drugged with sodium amytal is irrelevant, because the facts show that he was lying and MJ was innocent.

      • June 9, 2011 5:54 pm

        “If Dr. Torbiner really gave Jordan Chandler any sodium amytal, do you think he would have made a record of it? According to Dimond’s logic, because Dr. Torbiner didn’t make a record of it, he obviously didn’t use sodium amytal! Well, what about the other drugs that he gave to his other patients illegally, for which he was fired from his job? Do you think he kept accurate records of those drugs? To me, this is a non-issue, because whether Jordan was drugged with sodium amytal is irrelevant, because the facts show that he was lying and MJ was innocent.

        Well said, David!

  12. shelly permalink
    March 21, 2011 4:17 am

    I guess I forgot about that part.

  13. lynande51 permalink*
    March 21, 2011 3:59 am

    yes he threatened to destroy Michael and lied saying that he had bugged the bedroom and that was how he knew about the kissing and jering off and stuff.

  14. shelly permalink
    March 21, 2011 3:20 am

    I have a question for the people who read All that Glitter, I read that on the LSA board

    “What many people don’t know is that Evan threatened Jordie into saying that Michael touched him AFTER drugging him. He said: “I know about the kissing and jerking off….if you don’t tell me the truth, I will destroy Michael in front of the entire world and it will be ALL YOUR FAULT. Jordie still said nothing. Evan then asked Jordie if he cared about Michael, Jordie said yes. It was at that point that Evan asked Jordie if Michael touched his penis (this is the part that is written in the GQ magazine but the entire conversation was never reported). Even Bitch Dimond repeats it in her book.”

    Did he really threatened Jordan. I remember he said “I know about the kissing and jerking off” but I don’t remember the rest of it.

    • lcpledwards permalink
      March 21, 2011 4:00 am

      @ Shelly
      Yes, it is true, and that conversation was repeated in both “All That Glitters” and “Be Careful Who You Love”. Here is an excerpt from page 60 of “BCWYL”:

      When Jordie came out of the sedation I asked him to tell me about Michael and him. I (falsely told) him that I had bugged his bedroom and I knew everything anyway and that I just wanted to hear it from him. I told him not to be embarrassed….”I know about the kissing and the jerking off and the blow jobs.” This isn’t about me finding anything out. It’s about lying – If you lie then I’m going to take him (Jackson) down.

      “I’m going to make it very easy for you. I’m going to ask you one question. All you have to do is say yes or no”.

      Jordie spoke his first words, “Promise?”

      I said, “Jordie, did I ever lie to you in your whole life?”

      He said, “No.”

      I said, “Well, I never will.”

      He said, “You won’t hurt Michael, right?”

      I said, “I promise.”

      He said, “I don’t want anyone else ever to know. Promise me you won’t ever tell anyone.”

      “I promise,” I said.

      So he said, “What’s the question?”

      I asked, “Did Michael Jackson ever touch your penis?”

      Unbelievably, he still hesitated. The longest couple of seconds of my life went be and then finally he answered in an almost inaudible whisper, “Yes.”

      Unfortunately I don’t have the exact excerpt from “All That Glitters”, so you’ll have to read the book yourself to see exactly what was said.

  15. Amerie permalink
    November 13, 2010 4:49 am

    Funny this writer could get his hands on documents the police couldnt. Read the FBI files.

  16. Amerie permalink
    November 13, 2010 4:48 am

    Wrong, he did not use sodium amytal.

  17. Jan permalink
    November 9, 2010 7:41 pm

    Hi all,

    By now all of you have all the information and the links to make your complaints:

    http://t.co/TF7TtG0

    and:

    http://tinyurl.com/238kbw9

    Essentially we need to en masse to OFCOM, and to ITV THIS MORNING direct by telephone and email.

    We also need to telephone daily until an on-air apology is made.

    The department that you will be phoning ( see both links above) closes each day at midday (GMT) and opens at 08:00 am ( GMT)

    A reminder: On British television on November 9, 2010 an ex-editor of a tabloid guesting on the morning show called ITV THIS MORNING
    said Michael Jackson’s children and all children were better off now that he was dead. This is a total abuse of media to degrade and criminalize the memory and name of a man declared emphatically innocent in a legal court of law.

    It is not enough to call once, we must – if we can, call daily and diligently contact OFCOM with strong, ‘non fanny’ complaints.

    This next bit is important:

    To qualify to complain at OFCOM you need to be British. If you live outside the UK, before you head to OFCOM’s site, choose a British residence from here ( the link below)

    http://www.lettingsearch.co.uk/searchprofile.php?U=UPAD

    British Telephone numbers begin 0207 OR 0208 then the digit count is XXX XXX e.g 0207 530 4500

    At the OFCOM site you will be asked to provide name, UK address, UK telephone number and an email.

    Program details are:

    ITV This Morning

    November 9, 2010

    10:35 am

    Person we are complaining about is a media commentator NOT a presenter on the show. He was a guest on the show. His name is:

    Kelvin MacKenzie.

    Please can we all complain everyday.

    I am hoping all site owners will urge their members on their sites and all social network facilites to complain. This is literally beyond an outrage.

    Thank you.

    • November 9, 2010 8:17 pm

      Jan, thank you for alerting us to this problem. Your post is now updated with your second comment. Since those outside the UK have not seen the programme it is somewhat difficult for us to respond, but by your reaction to it I see that it must have been a real outrage. We should find words of support for the man who cannot defend himself any more and for his children who deserve respect for their father.

      What this MacKenzie actually did was real abuse of Michael’s children.

  18. Jan permalink
    November 9, 2010 5:09 pm

    Hi all,

    Something outrageous happened this morning on November 9 on a British television show that we need to address. It is a very clear case of an abuse of Michael Jackson’s name and memory and use of media to do that.

    Forwarded below is the substance of the issue.

    At 10:35 am on November 9, 2010 on ‘ ITV This Morning,’ a breakfast show programme, presenter Kelvin MacKenzie basically accused MJ of being an abuser, mocked Mr Jackson’s parental link to his children, and ranted offensively about MJ for some time.

    Mr MacKenzie did this in response to the airing on US televison of Oprah Winfrey’s programme with Mr Jackson’s parents and his surviving children on November 8, 2010.

    ITV this morning is a breakfast show like Good Morning America, there to provide news and magazine style items — not disseminate unproven, seriously accusatory monologues about a dead man to an entire country while they eat their breakfast cereal.

    Below are the contact details, both telephone number and email. Obviously it important everyone who cares about Michael’s legacy gets on this. It is also important if they are not resident in the UK, that they do not mention that — or they will not have complainant status.

    How to complain specifically to ITV THIS MORNING:

    ITV Viewer enquiries

    Tel: 08000 30 40 44 end_of_the_skype_highlighting ** and ** 0844 88 14150 end_of_the_skype_highlighting

    Those who wish to complain need to use the * first* number before midday. The first telephone number is the specific telephone number of ITV This Morning. The second telephone number is a more general complaints number that is open for longer than the midday cut-off.

    Timing is criticial on this as this event happened today on November 9, 2010. Regarding the two telephone numbers above, the first one needs to be called *** before **** midday tomorrow on November 10 — and then continuously until ITV THIS MORNING airs an apology.

    You can also email at: viewerservices@itv.com

    Alternatively, you can write to:

    Viewer Services
    ITV Plc
    Gas Street
    Birmingham
    B1 2JT

    We also need to complain to OFCOM – the official complaints authority for UK media.

    https://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/tell-us/specific-programme-epg

    You will need to state your name, address and email in a form to submit, and the programme details itself.

    Programme details are: ITV THISMORNING – November 9, 2010 at 10:35.

    To specifically complain about presenter: Kelvin Mackenzie.

    * Here is a template of how you may wish to word your complaint *

    Presenter Kelvin MacKenzie, on the morning of Nov 9 on the ITV THISMORNING, commented on an interview conducted by Oprah Winfrey — a US chat show host – with Michael Jackson s parents and surviving children.

    Mr MacKenzie felt it necessary to speculate in a highly offensive manner about the biological resemblance of Michael Jacksons children to their late father, offer his own non-legal, highly accusatory opinion about the serious charges Jackson was accused of in 2005 — and emphatically acquitted, and basically call the late Michael Jackson a child molester on national television.

    The nature of his rant, as that is what it was, was in effect, to deliver an outrageous monologue on national television espousing his own obviously negative and highly personalized view of someone who cannot answer back.

    This is unacceptable, and goes way beyond the boundaries of professionalism and proper media decorum.

    I think, at the very least, an apology to Mr Jacksons family and British viewers is necessary here.

    Your Name ( Please do not use fan name ).

    * Thank you everyone for helping in this. It is important we all feel we have a right to step up when media abuses its mandate to objectively inform us. Insulting individuals — whether they be dead or alive is simply unacceptable. *

  19. Jan permalink
    November 9, 2010 5:07 pm

    This is off topic but I have to bring it to your attention:

    On ITV1 UK this morning programme a reviewer of the news (ex-sun editor now columnist) Kelvin Mackenzie gave a vile rant:

    After they showed a clip of Paris saying MJ was a great father and saying they used to go to Art galleries together and paly tag in the garden, Kelvin said ‘well its nice of her to say that about her dead father but i have a much more significant question about how and why some of those children were born and under what cir***stances and whether in the end he would have turned out to be a great father. Certainly there are aspects of him that your audience would raise their eyebrows at. In fact the death of Michael Jackson may well have saved some children from a lifetime of being mentally crupted.’

    Philip Scofield then said ‘we don’t know that though’

    Kelvin Mackenzie ‘ no but at the same time he has faced a number of charges and allegations and i feel the children are better off now he has died’

    Philip ‘i am sure they would disagree with you’

  20. visitor permalink
    November 9, 2010 1:46 pm

    @Alison

    Trying to understand Desire is like trying to understand Victor Gutieres. You can not understand them because the people are mentally unbalanced. Don’t try to understand them, just forget that they exist. They don’t worth your time

  21. Alison permalink
    November 9, 2010 3:57 am

    I would like to know how Desiree KNOWS with such certainty. How can he KNOW what nobody in a 5 month or so trial couldn’t KNOW?

    How does he KNOW the boys liked it?

    Desiree tell us please how you KNOW beyond doubt all these things and why you are the only one who KNOWS. I want to understand this so please explain.
    Thank you.

  22. Suzy permalink
    November 8, 2010 12:58 pm

    Thank you, Lynette. Interesting. So maybe SA WAS used on Jordan after all. Hm.

  23. November 8, 2010 4:13 am

    i’m sure i read it was jordan, but if it was gavin what a hdp, i also wonder what did evan do with the expensive watch that Michael gave him.

  24. lynande51 permalink*
    November 8, 2010 4:03 am

    It was Gavin that wanted the watch and jacket back after the trial. Yes that sterling young man wanted his pirates booty thats for sure. He probably wanted to sell it on EBay.

  25. November 8, 2010 3:49 am

    thanks for this. i have a question anybody knows about jordan asking back the evidence after the 2005 trial it was a jacket and a watch that Michael gave him, i read it somewhere, but i didn’t save the link, somebody knows anything about this.
    thanks again.

  26. lynande51 permalink*
    November 8, 2010 3:01 am

    Tom Mesereau did say that in his speech at Harvard that he had 3 witnesses ready to come forward to say that he had told them he hated his parents because they made him lie. He could have had people ready to do just that. It is impossible for him not to know there is something wrong with what he sees in his mind and what he feels happened to him. I would say that the evidence of his life after the Settlement is more telling than anything else. We do know that he sought emmanicpation from his parent’s and he filed for that in May of 1995 and it was granted in November of that year. Some of the Pages from that are in the book. What that actually coincides with is Nathalie divorcing Evan and he decides to stay with her rather than live with either one of his own parents. He gets emmanicipated and receives his last payment from MJ’s insurance company in 1999 and then moves to New York. They say that for a short time he lives in a house in The Hampton’s about 2 years and then sells it and buys an apartment in NYC and buys a condo for his father in NewJersey. His father is pretty dependent on him because of his Gauchier’s Disease and Jordan probably couldn’t completely turn his back on a man who had nothing because he wasted all of his money with lawyers for his second lawsuit. They were ordered to pay the legal cost for MJ and LMP which probaly cost in the millions.He then has a falling out with his father in 2005 when he assaulted him or attempted to kill him with a barbell. I also have some bank statements from the house and it would appear that the settlement might have been for 15.3 million dollars but that it was probably divided up with Larry Feldman who I believe was the only true winner in that case. I don’t think he is a happy and very rich young man.

  27. lynande51 permalink*
    November 8, 2010 1:57 am

    Lily did live with June, Jordan and Dave. Lily was Dave’s Daughter. Jordan also had 2 siblings with Evan. A little boy named Nicky who was four at the time and a baby sister named Gabrielle. These were Evan’s Children from his second wife Nathalie. The book MJWML is full of photos of Jordan and his little brother Nicky one in particular shows them in the tub together.It has photos of their bedroom and a room with a white board in it where evan supposedly had a plan of attack against Michael. There is also a photo of VG with his arm around Blanca Francia sitting somewhere together. Of course there is the infamous cover photo that Jordan took of Michael in his PJ’s that showed that they slept in the same house. That is why I don’t really doubt a connection between VG and EC and so the letters and other things he got were probably legitimate. What I want to figure out is when exactly did he make contact with them was it before the allegations surfaced and how much did he have to do with the extortion?Did he help them set Michael up or did they help him set Michael up? It is also interesting to know that the police at least in LA anyway were leaning a little more toward extortion than they were abuse.That is what it said in one article that I read. I will try to do another longer piece tomorrow but I don’t want some of the other important things getting lost in too many posts.

  28. Dialdancer permalink
    November 8, 2010 1:23 am

    One thing is for sure either Evan did get Jordan something or someone was very through in laying a false trail to prove their point. Each year technology becomes more sophisticated and each year the general public (us) becomes more adept at using those tools for discovery. I thought Lily lived in the house with June and Jordan. I saw step-brother on Rothman’s letter which may mean nothing the attorney not have known or not paid any real attention when told. In either case the documents are very valuable.

  29. November 8, 2010 12:58 am

    What year are these witnesses from? Are they from when he was 13 and still at school? Are they from college years? When?

  30. visitor permalink
    November 8, 2010 12:36 am

    “By the way once a false memory has been implanted it is almost always impossible to remove it.”

    So if this is true and Jordie was given the drug, that means that he still believes that MJ molested him.But this contradicts what Mesereau said that Jordan over the years has told to a lot of people that Michael didn’t touch him. I don’t understand. I just wanted to know when someone reveals things under the influence of a drug, can that person testify to a cort? Is his testimony accepted by the legal system?

  31. shelly permalink
    November 8, 2010 12:32 am

    @teva

    I remember reading that too.

  32. November 8, 2010 12:27 am

    Hi Lynette,

    Didn’t Sneddon say the sodium amytal story was garbage.

  33. lynande51 permalink*
    November 7, 2010 9:07 pm

    I can also help with the explanation of memory implantation. In memory implantation the person’s actual memory remains intact meaning that they would remember the event as it happened and the false memories are implanted into them. In an experiment of memory implantation they use a subject that is a young woman that sees a woman with blonde hair and her memory implantation tells her she has dark hair. Whenever she recalls the woman with the blond hair she recalls her with dark hair, same woman, and different hair color. However when she is questioned about this memory she says that even though she sees it doesn’t feel like she has dark hair it feels like she has blonde hair. I know that is a little complicated but it is this: a person with false memories will see what they are told to see with their memory but it will not feel right to them. They still see it they just don’t feel it and it becomes very confusing to the person. By the way once a false memory has been implanted it is almost always impossible to remove it.

  34. lynande51 permalink*
    November 7, 2010 8:50 pm

    Deborah the authorizing signature was Evan Chandler’s on the right hand side of the consent. It had to be signed by him because just like everyother legal document it cannot be signed by someone under the age of 18.Under that it says Father because it asks for the relationship to the patient.On the left hand side is the name of the Dr. or designee who is administering the drug and under that the signature of the Dr. or designee. To clear something up a designee is usually a CRNA or a Certified Registered Nurse Ansethetist.If you have a copy of the settlement agreement you can compare the two signatures of Evan Chandler. I should tell you too if you have any questions about my deciphering the handwriting that I read different Dr.s hand writing several times a day and have even had them ask me what they wrote because I am pretty good at it.
    Olga we do know that Victor Gutierrez was involved with the Chandlers early in the investigation from the LA Times article that I posted here a couple of months ago. He was questioned by the Police for approximately 8 hours concerning his involvement and his information regarding other boys from day 5 of the investigation. He admittedly is or was close to the Chandler aupair/ housekeeper so he either could have been given these things by her or even Evan Chandler in the beginning who knows but it appears very genuine to me and one would have to question where he would get a generic form for Consent if he filled it out himself. The blanks are commonly kept in a locked hospital pharmacy.

  35. November 7, 2010 8:42 pm

    Very interesting. It does not neccessarily have to be sodium amytal it could also be Sodium Pentothal this drug was used for general anesthesia in the early 1990s and it has the same effect as amytal. I was recently watching a movie from 1991/2, and these medical students were putting each other under using Sodium Pentothal as the anesthesia. “Sodium Pentothal is a drug which is commonly used in operating rooms as general anesthesia, though in recent years it has been largely replaced by better alternatives. ”

    What struck me as odd was, the same things Jordan accused Michael of are the same questions asked by Evan when the kid was coming out of anesthesia. They are the exact same acts alleged during the Gardener interview. An interview which I have discussed with another blogger, and always had trouble with.

    Some time ago I posted that I had seen a video of one of T-Mez’s PI saying Jordan was given sodium amytal. I have tried to find the clip again, but I can’t, and I really wished I had downloaded it and saved it as I do now with great finds. After I could not find it again I said maybe I made a mistake, but it is not like me to get confused.

  36. Olga permalink
    November 7, 2010 8:02 pm

    Considering the….source, how can we be sure about the authenticity of these documents in that fictional book?

  37. Deborah Ffrench permalink
    November 7, 2010 7:55 pm

    I would like to see the signatures of authorization on this document.

  38. lcpledwards permalink
    November 7, 2010 5:51 am

    Lynette, what perfect timing! Guess what? On yesterday’s episode of ABC’s “20/20”, they featured a man named Ray Spencer, who was falsely accused by his own kids of molestation in the mid-1980’s, spent almost 20 years in jail, and was freed after his kids recanted and police misconduct was proven to have taken place during their interrogation!

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/11/clyde-ray-spencer-impriso_n_230096.html

    But what makes this story relevant to your post is that the kids were NOT given sodium amytal (which is usually the case), but the fact that the father, in an attempt to prove his innocence, agreed to have it used on him, as well as being put under hypnosis! So this case proves that sodium amytal was truly regarded as a “truth serum” until the 1990’s.

    There is a person named Teri Castro who commented on that article and outlined all of the exculpatory evidence that should have cleared him in the first place. Here is what that she says about sodium amytal:

    Spencer maintained his innocence both under hypnosis and sodium Amytal (“truth serum”) facts that were never mentioned in court. “I have never observed an individual who can withhold information under the conditions of Amytal and hypnosis,” wrote Dr. Lawrence Halpern in a 1986 letter filed with Spencer’s first appeal.

    Also, the part in the episode where the father briefly discusses being drugged with sodium amytal isn’t available online, but fortunately I recorded it, and here’s what he says:

    Narrator’s commentary: It’s hard to even imagine what it must be like to be charged with repeatedly and violently raping your own children. Accused of doing just that, former policeman Ray Spencer had come to believe it might be true. Desperate to see if he somehow had suppressed memories of committing these awful crimes, he underwent hypnosis in the spring of 1985, and was injected with truth serum.

    Ray Spencer: They took me so deep that they put me into a self-induced coma. And the findings from the doctor said “I can’t find anything here that would lead me to believe that these charges are factual.”

    Narrator’s commentary: For Ray, the doctor’s conclusions cleared his mind of any doubt that he was innocent, but didn’t wash with prosecutors in Clark County, Washington, who remained convinced that Ray was guilty of repeated and horrendous sexual assaults.

    It’s a shame that those corrupt cops allowed this innocent man to lost 20 years of his life. Ironically, the lead investigator in this case was said by others to be out to make a name for herself. (Gee, does that sound familiar?) She interrogated Spencer’s daughter ALONE in a hotel room, and did NOT make any recordings of the interrogations! Needless to say, she refused to discuss the case both on- and off-camera! Coward!

    The following piece of evidence also shows how crooked the cops were in this case:

    One alleged victim, a 9-year-old boy, denied Spencer abused him for eight months and changed his story only after a Clark County sheriff’s detective threatened him with a lie detector test. Once the detective elicited allegations from the boy that he had suffered frequent, violent abuse, the boy was not examined by a doctor.

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