March 10th, 2005 Direct and Cross Examination of Gavin Arvizo and Sgt. Steve Robel, Part 2 of 3
Next, Sneddon tried to play a DVD of the bedroom alarms outside of Jackson’s bedroom, but Mesereau objected due to an insufficient foundation, and Judge Melville agreed, so Sneddon told Gavin to temporarily step down from the witness stand, and he called Sergeant Steve Robel to the stand to provide an adequate foundation for the video to be played as evidence against Jackson:
15 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, at this time I
16 have an exhibit marked as 345 for identification
17 purposes. And I’ve shown it to Mr. Sanger, but I’ll
18 show it to other counsel.
19 (Off-the-record discussion held at counsel
21 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Okay, Gavin.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. I put in front of you an item marked as
24 Exhibit 345. Okay.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Do you recognize that.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Were you asked to look at that last night. 1594
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And with regard to looking at that, were you
3 asked to see if you recognized the material that’s
4 on that video.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you.
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. SNEDDON: I move that it be admitted and
9 played to the jury, Your Honor.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, we’re going to
11 object on foundation grounds. We’ve reviewed that.
12 There are severe problems with the accuracy of that.
13 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Can’t hear you, Mr.
15 MR. MESEREAU: Oh. Pardon me.
16 THE COURT: Do you want to restate your
18 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor. We have
19 reviewed the DVD. We strongly object on foundation
20 grounds and authenticity grounds. We think it’s a
21 mischaracterization and a misrepresentation of what
22 it tries to depict, and we have factual reasons for
24 THE COURT: What is it a DVD of.
25 MR. SNEDDON: It’s the chimes that go off
26 when you go in the door.
27 THE COURT: Oh.
28 MR. SNEDDON: And it was — I won’t say 1595
1 anything more, unless you want me to.
2 MR. MESEREAU: It’s inaccurate, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: That’s subject to
4 cross-examination, though.
5 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, I think —
6 THE COURT: There is a foundation problem,
7 though. He didn’t create the video. He just
8 watched it.
9 MR. SNEDDON: That’s correct. But it’s
10 illustrative of what his testimony is with regard to
11 the sound. So I think it’s admissible on that
12 basis. And I’ll represent to the Court, without any
13 question we’ll be able to lay the foundation as to
14 who took that and that it is accurate.
15 MR. MESEREAU: We’d object on authenticity
16 and foundation, Your Honor. It’s not an accurate
17 depiction of what it purports to be.
18 THE COURT: The — all right. Let me look a
19 minute, here.
20 All right. I’m going to sustain the
21 foundation objection. Right now the foundation that
22 you laid was: “Do you recognize 345.
24 “Were you asked to look at it last night.
26 “And with regard to looking at that, were
27 you asked to see if you recognized the material
28 on the video. 1596
2 “And did you.
4 So I find that is an insufficient
6 MR. SNEDDON: All right. Then what I
7 propose to do at this point, Your Honor, would be to
8 have this witness step down and I’ll put Sergeant
9 Robel on to lay the foundation.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 MR. SNEDDON: I can do that between now and
12 the break, and then the witness can come back
13 immediately afterwards.
14 MR. MESEREAU: All right.
15 MR. SNEDDON: All right. Gavin, would you
16 step out, please.
17 Call Sergeant Robel.
Sgt. Steve Robel was one of the lead investigators in the Jackson case, and was (at that time) a 22 year veteran of the sheriff’s department. He was present during the execution of the search warrant at Neverland on November 18th, 2003. Under direct examination, Sneddon asked Sgt. Robel to confirm that he witnessed the recording of the bedroom alarms during the raid on Neverland:
1 DIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. SNEDDON:
3 Q. You’re a Sergeant with the Santa Barbara
4 Sheriff’s Department.
5 A. Yes, I am.
6 Q. How long have you been with the sheriff’s
8 A. Approximately 22 years.
9 Q. Now, on November the 18th of 2003, were you
10 present during the execution of a search warrant at
11 Neverland Valley Ranch.
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. And are you one of the lead investigators
14 into the case against the defendant in this case,
15 Michael Jackson.
16 A. Yes, I am.
17 Q. Were you present at the time that entry was
18 made into his residence.
19 A. Yes, I was.
20 Q. And were you in the company of the
21 individual who was filming the entry into the house.
22 A. Yes, I was.
23 Q. And did you accompany that person all
24 through the house.
25 A. Yes, I did.
26 Q. And have you had occasion to review — and
27 did he videotape the entire house before anybody
28 made any other entry into it. 1598
1 A. Yes, he did.
2 Q. Did you accompany him in that part of the
3 house where the hallway leads into Mr. Jackson’s
4 bedroom suite.
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Were you present when he videotaped that.
7 A. Yes, I was.
8 Q. And have you reviewed that videotape in
9 connection with this investigation.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And with regard to the particular exhibit
12 that’s in front of you marked as — 345. 344.
13 A. It’s 345.
14 Q. 345. Did you review that.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is that a portion of the videotape that was
17 taken by the person who accompanied you at the time
18 that you folks executed the search warrant —
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. — on the 18th.
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. And is it an accurate depiction of the sound
23 that you heard when you entered Mr. Jackson’s
24 bedroom suite.
25 A. Yes.
26 THE COURT: Cross-examine.
27 MR. SANGER: That’s my witness, if that’s
28 all right. 1599
1 MR. SNEDDON: No further questions, I guess
2 I should have said, Your Honor.
Jackson’s defense attorney Robert Sanger proceeded to cross-examine Sgt. Robel, and he admitted that he and the other officers didn’t expect to hear any alarms, nor were they actively looking for alarms. The videotape was not made for the express purpose of representing how the bell sounded inside Jackson’s bedroom when it went off, nor does it measure and preserve in any way the decibel levels of the alarm in its recording:
5 BY MR. SANGER:
6 Q. Sergeant Robel, at the time — let’s start
7 with this. 345 is a snippet, as it were, from a
8 many-hour-long video; is that correct.
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. And that little snippet was selected today,
11 or for today’s proceedings, by you; is that right.
12 Or was it selected by somebody else.
13 A. This was off of a CD.
14 Q. Who selected it.
15 A. I did and Detective Bonner.
16 Q. You did.
17 A. And Detective Bonner.
18 Q. And Detective Bonner.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. So you went through to find a part of that
21 CD where you might hear a bell.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. At the time that you were going
24 through the residence when this tape was actually
25 being made, you were not listening for that bell,
26 were you.
27 A. No, we weren’t.
28 Q. Okay. You were walking through, and you 1600
1 were — this was your first opportunity to go inside
2 Mr. Jackson’s bedroom suite; is that right.
3 A. As — under a circumstance of a protective
4 sweep, yes.
5 Q. In other words, you started your search by
6 going through the house and making sure that there
7 was nobody in the rooms, and making sure you knew
8 where everything was; is that right.
9 A. Exactly. And making sure that if there were
10 people in the rooms, we would bring them downstairs
11 and centrally locate them, yes. Safety purposes.
12 Q. And the filming was going on at that time.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you had never been in Mr. Jackson’s
15 bedroom suite before that time; is that correct.
16 A. No, I hadn’t.
17 Q. So you were looking around. You were
18 vigilant to see if there was anybody in there. You
19 were doing your job at that point, correct.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. So you weren’t really listening
22 for that bell.
23 A. I wasn’t. Not actively, no.
24 Q. And the reason you found this part of the
25 tape is, you went back to listen to the tape, and
26 you and Detective Bonner found a place where you
27 heard something about the bell; is that correct.
28 A. That’s incorrect. 1601
1 Q. Okay. Well, let’s move on.
2 THE COURT: Let’s take a break.
3 MR. SANGER: Let’s take a break and move on.
4 (Recess taken.)
5 THE COURT: Go ahead, Counsel.
6 MR. SANGER: May I proceed. Thank you, Your
8 Q. Sergeant Robel, this particular tape we’re
9 talking about, 345, was not made for the express
10 purpose of representing how this bell sounded inside
11 of Mr. Jackson’s room when the bell went off, was
13 A. No, you are correct.
14 Q. Okay. And the equipment that was used, the
15 sound-recording — it’s a video; it’s part of a
16 videotape, right.
17 A. I believe so, yes.
18 Q. And the sound-recording device that was
19 used, are you familiar with that particular device.
20 A. I’m really not.
21 Q. Okay. Do you know if it measures the
22 decibel level of the sounds that it’s recording.
23 A. No, I don’t believe so.
24 Q. And this particular tape doesn’t preserve in
25 any way the decibel levels of the sounds that it’s
26 recording, does it.
27 A. I don’t believe so.
28 Q. All right. Now, you’ve listened to this 1602
1 carefully, I take it, this 345; is that right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And it is — it is, in part, a scene where
4 you are talking with a gentleman about the key pad,
5 and getting the correct combination to go into the
6 suite of rooms that we’ve described as Michael
7 Jackson’s bedroom suite, the first floor, second
8 floor, that area, correct.
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. So you’re talking to him, he’s giving some
11 instructions. And in the background, if you listen,
12 you can hear the bell ringing, is that correct,
13 while you’re still in the hallway.
14 A. Up by the key pad, I believe you’re correct,
16 Q. In other words, I’m talking about, you
17 reviewed this —
18 A. Right.
19 Q. — trying to remember what this shows.
21 A. Right.
22 Q. This particular 345.
23 You start to hear a fairly faint bell as
24 you’re standing in the hallway before you go through
25 the door, correct. You start to hear on this
26 tape —
27 A. I just need clarification. When you talk
28 about the door, are you talking about the first set 1603
1 of doors that we’re going through going down the
2 hallway, or talking about the double doors to
3 Michael’s bedroom.
4 Q. The double doors to Michael’s bedroom, what
5 we’re calling Michael’s bedroom. This is where you
6 have the first floor and you go back and there’s a
7 second floor, right.
8 A. Okay. The second floor I’m familiar with
9 inside his bedroom, yes.
10 Q. So we’re talking about going through the
11 double doors that lead you down three or four steps
12 into a living room area, correct.
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And then behind that is the door and the
15 stairway to a second floor; is that correct.
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. All right. So we’re at those double doors.
18 You’re in this video that you have reviewed, Exhibit
19 345, you and some other officers are up there at or
20 near this front double door area that goes into this
21 living room; is that right.
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And the cameraman — I was going to move
24 back, but then you wouldn’t be able to hear me, or
25 somebody wouldn’t — the cameraman is standing back
26 a few paces behind all of you; is that correct.
27 A. I believe so. I don’t know exactly where he
28 was. But he was behind me, yes. 1604
1 Q. And the microphone, to pick up the sound, is
2 on his camera; is that correct.
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Didn’t have a boom mike or somebody else
5 wasn’t miked in this situation.
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. All right. And when you reviewed this, at
8 some point you start to hear the dinging of the bell
9 that’s fairly faint from the cameraman’s position in
10 the hallway; is that correct.
11 A. Where I heard it was when I was standing at
12 the key pad. That’s when I first heard it.
13 Q. All right. And I’m talking about this —
14 what this depicts.
15 A. Right.
16 Q. This depicts sound picked up from this
17 cameraman back in the hallway, and the bell rings
18 about 12 times; is that correct.
19 A. I didn’t count them, but it was more than
20 once, yes.
21 Q. It was more than three.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. And it was about 12, was it not, sir.
24 A. If — I would say it was approximately that,
26 Q. All right. And as the cameraman — as you
27 come in, and you walk down the few steps into the
28 living room area, you then make — you start to walk 1605
1 towards the door that goes up the stairway to Mr.
2 Jackson’s bedroom; is that correct.
3 A. I believe so.
4 Q. And just as you get to his door, that’s
5 pretty much where this tape ends; is that right.
6 A. I think so, yes.
7 Q. Okay. And as you’re getting to his door,
8 the cameraman is just starting to walk into the room
9 and down the stairs, into this living room area down
10 the stairs, correct.
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And the sound is becoming louder, the sound
13 of the bell is becoming louder just as the tape
14 ends; is that correct.
15 A. Really didn’t pay attention as far as
16 whether it was becoming louder or not. I mean, I
17 could hear it, and I was in front. When I was
18 viewing that, I didn’t determine whether it was
19 louder or fainter.
20 Q. In other words, I understand what — your
21 recollection of what really happened when you were
22 there is, but what this depicts is a cameraman
23 several paces behind a group of three officers and a
24 civilian; is that correct.
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. And your group, at least the three officers,
27 move into the downstairs, and move towards the door
28 to Mr. Jackson’s stairway and his upper bedroom, 1606
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And the cameraman is still back — he’s
4 behind you, moving up.
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And the sound is actually louder as you get
7 closer to that bedroom door; isn’t that correct.
8 A. I don’t know. I don’t know until I hear
9 that again. I mean, I viewed that two or three
10 times, but I never really determined whether it was
11 louder or not.
12 MR. SANGER: I have no further questions.
13 THE COURT: Thank you.
14 MR. SANGER: The objection stands.
15 THE COURT: You may step down.
16 Bring the other witness in.
17 MR. SNEDDON: Wait. I have a question.
18 THE COURT: All right.
Sneddon took the opportunity to redirect examine Sgt. Robel, who confirmed that the alarm is laser activated, and goes off each time someone walks past it:
20 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. SNEDDON:
22 Q. Sergeant Robel, with regard to the bell
23 system itself, is that laser-activated, to your
25 A. To my knowledge, yes.
26 Q. So that every time somebody passes it, it
27 sets it off again.
28 A. That is correct. 1607
1 Q. So when Mr. Sanger asked you if you heard it
2 go 12 times in a row, every time one of the people
3 connected with the walk-through went through, it
4 would go off again.
5 A. Correct.
6 MR. SANGER: I’m going to object and move to
7 strike. That is a leading question and —
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 You may step down.
10 I’m going to allow the exhibit to go in.
11 Bring the witness in.
12 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Yes, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: You may be seated. You’re still
14 under oath.
Gavin was called back to the witness stand, and Sneddon continued his direct-examination where he left off by asking Gavin to confirm that the alarms on the videotape were the same alarms that he heard when he was at Neverland, and Gavin agreed that they were. Next, Sneddon asked Gavin if he ever passed out due to alcohol consumption, and Gavin gave a pretty wishy-washy answer, and surprisingly Sneddon said that he wouldn’t admit to it either!
5 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
6 BY MR. SNEDDON:
7 Q. Gavin, did you hear the chime go off.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is that the chime that went off when you
10 were visiting Neverland Valley Ranch.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, I want to ask you a couple more
13 questions and then we’ll move on to another subject,
14 okay. But I want to ask you a little bit about some
15 of the drinking that you did at the ranch.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Do you know what the term “passed out”
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Tell the jury what that means.
21 A. When you, like, lay down and you, like, go
22 to sleep and you sleep for a long time and you sleep
23 pretty hard.
24 Q. During the time that you were at the ranch
25 and you drank alcohol with the defendant, Mr.
26 Jackson, did you ever pass out.
27 A. Maybe once or twice. But I don’t think I
28 really ever — well, when I’d go to sleep, I would 1609
1 usually sleep pretty hard, but I don’t know about,
2 like, just sitting somewhere and just (indicating);
3 you know what I mean.
4 Q. I guess. I wouldn’t admit it even if I did.
5 Did you ever get sick.
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. How did you feel when you got sick.
8 A. Felt like — my stomach hurt a lot. I don’t
9 think I ever really threw up, though. But, like, I
10 felt, like, nauseated.
In this excerpt, Sneddon asked Gavin to describe how he met Hamid Mosheli, and how the rebuttal film was shot:
5 Q. Okay. Now, do you know an individual by the
6 name of Hamid.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Where did you meet Hamid for the
9 first time.
10 A. At — I’m not sure. I think he was the guy
11 that filmed Michael carrying me across the bridge,
12 but I’m not sure.
13 Q. Okay. The time after you came back from
14 Miami — all right.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. — and you were at the ranch, did you ever
17 meet Hamid there.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. Tell us about — where were you
20 when you met him.
21 A. I don’t know. But I was somewhere on the
22 ranch, because I remember he drove us to his house.
23 Q. He drove you to his house.
24 A. From Neverland.
25 Q. And who is you.
26 A. It was me, my mom, my brother and my sister.
27 Q. And you went to his house. Do you remember
28 where he lived. 1615
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you remember how long it took to get
4 A. Two hours, probably.
5 Q. And when you got there, what did you do.
6 A. They had this camera set up and like this
7 big sheet thing that was coming down. Well,
8 actually, the first thing, I went there, he had some
9 video games, and I started playing his video games.
10 And then, I don’t know, they waited for some people
11 to come, or whatever, and then they came.
12 Q. Do you remember who the people were you were
13 waiting for.
14 A. Dieter.
15 Q. Anybody else you remember.
16 A. I think it was Vinnie. We were waiting for
17 Vinnie, too.
18 Q. Is that the first time you ever met Vinnie,
19 or had you met him before that.
20 A. I think that was the first time I ever met
22 Q. Do you remember anybody else arriving. Let
23 me ask it this way: Did Vinnie come alone or was he
24 with somebody.
25 A. I think he might have been with Frank. I’m
26 not too sure.
27 Q. Now, during the time that you were there,
28 did an interview take place or a filming of some 1616
1 kind take place.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And who was doing the filming.
4 A. I believe it was Hamid.
5 Q. And do you recall about what time it was
6 when the filming started.
7 A. It was really late at night. It probably
8 started like around 11:00 — 10:00, 11:00 or
9 midnight, one of those, around there, because I
10 remember being really, really tired while I was
11 doing it.
12 Q. Now, prior to the time that you participated
13 in that interview at Hamid’s house — okay.
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. — had anybody ever told you what to say on
16 that interview.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And who was that.
19 A. Dieter.
20 Q. And what did Dieter say to you.
21 And it’s offered under 1223, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: I’ll admit this testimony
23 conditionally. The objection is noted.
24 MR. MESEREAU: Objection noted, Your Honor.
25 THE WITNESS: Dieter would say — like he
26 was telling us — you know, remember how, like,
27 Michael told me what to say in the Martin Bashir
28 thing. 1617
1 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Okay.
2 A. Like, Dieter was kind of doing the same
3 thing. Like, he was telling us – me, my mom and my
4 brother, my sister – what to say on this tape thing
5 for — they said it was like a rebuttal tape, or
6 something like that.
7 Q. And what did he tell you to say.
8 A. He said that, like, tell them — tell him,
9 like, Michael helped us a lot and, like, cured me
10 from cancer practically, and stuff like that.
11 Q. Did you ever see anything written down about
12 what you were to say.
13 A. Yeah. They had like — well, it was — I
14 don’t think it was really — well, they had, like,
15 this paper with a bunch of questions and stuff,
16 but — you know.
17 Q. And did you — did you get a chance to see
18 the questions before you went on the film.
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. And did you go over the answers to those
21 questions before you went on to film.
22 A. Well, kinda. It wasn’t really like we sat
23 down for an hour and was, like, talking and stuff.
24 It was kind of a brief thing. He wanted us to say
25 this and this and that; you know what I mean.
26 Q. Okay. At the time that you participated in
27 this particular video at Hamid’s house late in the
28 evening or — what was your attitude towards Mr. 1618
2 A. Well, I liked him a lot. I was like — he
3 was like my best friend in the whole world.
4 Q. Still at this point.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, on that particular video — you’ve had
7 a chance to see it since the time it was made, have
8 you not.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was everything that you said on the video
12 A. Not really.
13 Q. What parts of that video do you recall as
14 not being true.
15 A. I mean — because, like, I said stuff like
16 that Michael helped me a lot during — while I had
17 cancer. And, like, really he wasn’t really there
18 all that much.
19 Q. Anything else.
20 A. Um, I’m not too sure. It was a while ago.
21 Q. I’m sorry.
22 A. I’m not too sure. It was a while ago.
23 Q. That’s the one that sticks out in your mind.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. After the, what you call the rebuttal tape
26 was filmed that night, do you recall where you went.
27 A. I think Vinnie and Frank took us to, like,
28 an inn. 1619
Next, Sneddon asked Gavin to describe his interview with the DCFS workers, and he claimed that he lied about the nice things that he said about Jackson. Afterwards, he and his family were taken to the Calabasas hotel, and from there went on numerous shopping sprees for clothes for their trip to Brazil, and they obtained their Visas as well.
3 Q. Do you ever recall having a meeting with
4 some social workers.
5 A. Oh. Yeah. It was —
6 Q. When did that occur.
7 A. It was in the East — no, no, where we used
8 to live on St. Andrews.
9 Q. Where you used to live on St. Andrews with
11 A. Jay.
12 Q. Who else lived there with you.
13 A. My mom, my brother.
14 Q. Your sister.
15 A. I don’t think she lived there. I think she
16 was at my grandma’s.
17 Q. Now, in — just so the ladies and gentlemen
18 of the jury can understand, in relationship to the
19 Hamid rebuttal film that you’ve talked about –
20 okay. – was the meeting with the social workers
21 before or after that.
22 A. It was — I’m pretty sure it was after.
23 Q. Do you remember who was present during that
25 A. The social worker one.
26 Q. Yeah.
27 A. It was me, my brother, my mom. Aja was
28 there, Chris’s girlfriend. 1620
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. And the social worker ladies. And I think
3 Vinnie was there. But I don’t think he was
4 upstairs. I’m not too sure. And there was this guy
5 in a blue shirt.
6 Q. Describe the guy in the blue shirt for us.
7 A. I think he had like black hair and light
8 skin, kind of like me. And he was wearing, like,
9 dress pants and dress shoes and, like, a blue shirt.
10 Q. Can you describe what he was like
12 A. Well, probably like five-foot-eleven or
13 something like that. And about my body mass, but,
14 like, just bigger.
15 Q. Do you know who that person was. Did he
16 introduce himself to you.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you present when he arrived.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you hear him identify himself at any
21 time to anybody.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you at any time while you were there see
24 a tape-recorder that morning.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And where did you see a tape-recorder.
27 A. I saw it on our kitchen counter — yeah, on
28 our kitchen counter. 1621
1 Q. And did you ever see anybody pick up the
3 A. I think I saw my mom pick it up, or — yeah.
4 Q. And did you ever see your mom discuss
5 talking to this other individual you’ve described as
6 the —
7 A. I saw him and my mom go into another room
8 where my mom and my stepdad sleep, slept. And I
9 don’t know, they were talking in there, I guess.
10 Q. Did you see where the tape-recorder was at
11 the time they went into the bedroom.
12 A. No. I think it might have been in my mom’s
13 hand, but I’m not sure.
14 Q. When you actually had the interview with the
15 social workers, did everybody remain in there during
16 the interview.
17 A. No. I think Brad left or — yeah, that’s
18 his name, Brad, because I was just thinking, like,
19 Brad, because — wasn’t it Brad Miller.
20 Q. I’m not testifying.
21 A. Oh, okay. All right.
22 Q. All right. So somebody left.
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. All right. And who was left during the
26 A. Me, my mom, my brother, and my sister, I
28 Q. And do you recall the questions that the 1622
1 social workers asked you.
2 A. They asked me about Michael and —
3 Q. And do you remember what you told them.
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. What did you tell them.
6 A. I told them that he was a nice guy, and
7 that — like the stuff that we said on the rebuttal
9 Q. Pretty much the same stuff.
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. Do you remember — did they ask you whether
12 or not you slept in a bed with Mr. Jackson.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what did you say.
15 A. I said that we do now, because we were over
16 at the ranch, but I told them that nothing happens
17 when we’re on the bed.
18 Q. I’m sorry.
19 A. I told them nothing, like, bad happens.
20 Q. Was that the truth.
21 A. At the time, yes.
22 Q. After the interview with the social workers,
23 do you remember where you went.
24 A. I think we went back up to Neverland with
26 Q. And by “we,” who do you mean.
27 A. Me, my brother, my sister.
28 Q. And when you went back up to the ranch, when 1623
1 was the next time you left, if you recall.
2 A. Left from the ranch.
3 Q. Yeah. Do you remember going anywhere after
4 you got back up there from the social workers.
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. Did you at any time ever go shopping with
7 Frank or Vinnie.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. Tell the jury where — where
10 that occurred.
11 A. Well, we went to a mall, and they took us to
12 a place called Anchor Blue.
13 Q. And what did you do at Anchor Blue.
14 A. They bought us clothes because we didn’t
15 have any clothes. We didn’t have that many clothes.
16 Q. Now, why were they buying you clothes.
17 A. Because they didn’t really want us to go
18 back to our apartment, so they had us buy clothes
19 from there.
20 Q. Now, at the time that you went to Anchor
21 Blue and they bought you these clothes, where were
22 you staying at that point in time.
23 A. I believe I was staying — yeah, that’s when
24 I was staying at the Cal — bleh. The Calabasas Inn
25 place. The inn in Calabasas.
26 Q. Okay. And who was there with you.
27 A. My mom, my brother, and my sister, and Frank
28 and Vinnie. 1624
1 Q. Now, were Frank and Vinnie in the same room
2 as you.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you recall where their room was, if you
6 A. No. I believe — I’m pretty sure it was
7 down the hall.
8 Q. Now, at the time that you went to the
9 Calabasas Inn and you went shopping with Frank and
10 Vinnie, did you go any other places.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Where.
13 A. They went to get us visas and passports.
14 Q. And why were you getting visas and
16 A. Because they said they were going to take us
17 to Brazil.
18 Q. When did you first learn that you were going
19 to go to Brazil.
20 A. From Dieter.
21 Q. And when did you first learn from Vinnie and
22 Frank Tyson that they were going to take you out and
23 buy you clothes and things.
24 A. I don’t remember. It was probably a few
25 days after when I found out from Dieter. But I’m
26 not sure.
27 Q. Did you actually go with them when the
28 passports and the visas were obtained. 1625
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And were both Vinnie and Frank with you.
3 A. I believe so. I think Vinnie was there.
4 I don’t think Frank was there.
5 Q. Now, what was your understanding about when
6 you were going to go to Brazil.
7 A. A few weeks after we got our visas.
8 Q. Now, did you, in the presence of the
9 defendant in this case, Mr. Jackson, ever have a
10 conversation about the trip to Brazil.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And who else was present during that
14 A. Frank.
15 Q. Frank Tyson.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And where did that conversation take place.
18 A. In his room.
19 Q. “In his room” —
20 A. Michael’s room.
21 Q. And which part of the room in his house.
22 A. On his bed. Like, Frank was on his knees,
23 like on — his hands were over the bed like that
25 Q. And where were you.
26 A. Me and Michael were laying on the bed.
27 Q. All right. Tell us about the conversation.
28 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; vague. 1626
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: How did the subject of
3 Brazil come up.
4 A. Frank was getting angry because my mom
5 didn’t want to go. And then Frank was yelling
6 because he was, like, “Oh, we have a tutor over
7 there and we still haven’t left, and we ended up
8 paying for a tutor,” or something like that.
9 And then Michael was — he didn’t really
10 respond much, but he was, like, nodding his head,
11 like —
12 Q. You’ve nodded your head which way.
13 A. Up and down.
14 Q. To you, what does that mean.
15 A. “Yeah.” “Yes.”
16 Q. Okay. And how many times did you see Mr.
17 Jackson nod his head up and down.
18 A. A few times.
19 Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever say anything to you
20 about going to Brazil.
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. What did he say.
23 A. He said that we were going to go to Brazil
24 and that we were going to have a good time.
25 Q. Do you remember anything else Mr. Jackson
26 said to you about that trip.
27 A. That he was going to come a week later after
28 we got there. 1627
In this excerpt, Sneddon asked Gavin to describe the mannequin that he allegedly saw Jackson demonstrating sexual acts on:
6 Q. Now, directing your attention to the
7 mannequin that’s in the photograph in front of you –
8 okay. – did you ever see Mr. Jackson do anything
9 with that mannequin.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Tell us what he did.
12 A. Well, me and my brother were looking at the
13 mannequin, and we started laughing at it because it
14 was shaped funny, and then we showed Michael and he
15 started laughing. And then he started acting like
16 he was, like, having sex with the mannequin because
17 it was shaped funny.
18 Q. I couldn’t hear you.
19 A. Because it was shaped funny.
20 Q. All right. So what did he do with the
22 A. He acted like he was humping it.
23 Q. And where was he when he was doing that.
24 A. On the bed.
25 Q. Where were you and your brother.
26 A. I was sitting on the bed and I think my
27 brother might have been standing up.
28 Q. Now, the time that you saw Mr. Jackson on 1641
1 the bed with the mannequin, do you recall whether
2 that happened before or after you went to Calabasas.
3 A. I’m not sure. It was probably before. But
4 I’m not too sure.
5 Q. But you remember the incident.
6 A. Yes.
Next, Sneddon asked Gavin to describe a suitcase full of pornography (Exhibit 470) that he claimed Jackson showed him:
7 Q. All right. We can take that down, if you’d
9 I’m going to show an exhibit marked as 470.
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. Ever seen that before.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where was it the first time you saw it.
14 A. It was next to, like, this — it wasn’t
15 really a couch. Well, it felt like a couch, but —
16 it was like a one-person couch, and it had, like,
17 this place where you could put your feet up —
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. — that was, like, the same material, but it
20 was like a little square cushion thing, and you put
21 your feet up there.
22 Q. And what — what building was this.
23 A. This was in his room.
24 Q. Do you know what room it was.
25 A. It was in Michael’s room. But when you walk
26 in the door, like to the right would be the door to
27 go up to his bed, and then if you walk in there and
28 you walk this way and then go to the right inside 1642
1 this room, and you’d walk and there’s a couch thing.
2 Q. Was there anything else in that room.
3 A. Yeah, there was like a sink with a bunch of
4 his, like, perfumes and colognes. And there was
5 like a big mirror, like three-sided mirror. And
6 then there was a rest room. And then there’s a big
7 kind of tub, but kind of looks like a Jacuzzi,
9 Q. Now, when you first saw the suitcase, where
10 was it in that room.
11 A. It was next to — it was to the left of that
12 couch thing.
13 Q. And did you ever see Mr. Jackson pick up the
14 Exhibit 470.
15 A. Yeah, like I was hanging out with him in
16 there, and he was like putting on his makeup or
17 something, I don’t know. And then he — he grabbed
18 the — grabbed the suitcase, and then he told me —
19 he told me it was Frank’s. And he showed me, he was
20 like, “This is” —
21 Q. Okay. Well, what did he show you.
22 A. He was, like, “Look at the” — “Look at this
23 stuff. Frank’s stinking a-s-s.” Frank’s
24 stinking — it was S- — Frank’s stinking ass.
25 Q. All right. What was inside the suitcase.
26 A. Adult materials.
27 Q. And how many did you look at with Mr.
28 Jackson. 1643
1 A. Well, he showed me just one — like he
2 showed me, and there was this girl in there and then
3 he put it away.
4 Q. And how was the girl.
5 A. She had her legs spread open, and her vagina
6 was, like, showing.
7 Q. All right. Did you ever see that suitcase
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Where.
11 A. We had it — like, we had it up in his —
12 near his bed, and then we were looking at all the
14 Q. Who was “we”.
15 A. Me, my brother and Michael.
16 Q. And do you recall, where in the bedroom was
17 the suitcase when you first saw it that time.
18 A. The first time I saw it, it was in the rest
19 room kind of thing. And then the second time we —
20 I don’t know if we brought it up there or, like,
21 Michael brought it up there or something. I don’t
22 know. But it was up next to his bed. And we were
23 all going through the thing and we were making fun
24 of Frank.
25 Q. Did you look at the magazines.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. How many magazines do you think you saw.
28 A. We saw, like, practically everything, but 1644
1 there was a few we didn’t look at.
2 Q. How much time do you figure you were looking
3 at all those things.
4 A. 30 minutes to an hour, probably.
5 Q. Did Mr. Jackson make any comments during the
6 time — other than the ones you’ve talked about, any
7 other comments that he made at any of the
8 photographs or the magazines.
9 A. Not really. We just were, like, making fun
10 of Frank.
11 Q. Okay. Now, with regard to the first time
12 you saw it downstairs – okay. – in that room that
13 you described where he puts his makeup on, things
14 like that, do you remember whether that occurred
15 before or after Calabasas.
16 A. Well, while we were in there. That was
17 like —
18 Q. The first time.
19 A. Me and Michael only. When he showed me the
20 thing I said about Frank.
21 Q. Right.
22 A. Okay. That was like the same day that we
23 got back — no. Yeah, the same night we got back
24 from Miami.
25 Q. All right. What about the second incident
26 where you were upstairs. When was that in
27 relationship to Calabasas.
28 A. A few weeks — a week later, probably, or 1645
1 two weeks.
2 Q. So can you tell us whether that would be
3 before or after Calabasas.
4 A. Before Calabasas.
5 Q. Was there anything else in the suitcase that
6 you saw other than magazines themselves.
7 A. There was, like, cut-out pieces of
9 Q. What kind of cut-out pieces from the
11 A. Cut-out pieces of, like, girls taking a
12 shower or, like, just girls naked.
13 Q. All right.
In the previous excerpt, listen closely to how Gavin “didn’t know” if it was Jackson or he and his brother who brought the briefcase full of porn into Jackson’s bedroom. If this was only the second time that he had viewed porn at Neverland, don’t you think his memory would be a little clearer as to who exactly brought the porn into Jackson’s bedroom? (Thank you to our reader Nan who pointed this out to me!)
In this excerpt, Sneddon asked Gavin to describe how Jackson allegedly streaked upstairs into his room, in the nude and with an erection, as he and Star watched TV.
12 Q. Did you ever have any conversations with
13 Mr. Jackson with regard to whether it was natural to
14 be naked or nude.
15 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading. Move to
17 THE COURT: Stricken.
18 MR. MESEREAU: Ask that the prosecutor be
20 MR. SNEDDON: Well —
21 THE COURT: Ask another question, please.
22 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Was — was there ever any
23 occasion where you had — well, was there ever an
24 occasion where you saw anything with regard to
25 Mr. Jackson coming up the stairs.
26 A. Yes.
27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; vague.
28 THE COURT: Overruled. 1650
1 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: And where were you when you
2 saw Mr. Jackson coming up the stairs.
3 A. Me and my brother were laying on the bed.
4 Q. And what were you doing.
5 A. I think we were just laying there.
6 Q. All right. And when Mr. Jackson came up the
7 stairs, did you notice anything.
8 A. Yeah, he was naked.
9 Q. When you say “naked,” what do you mean by
11 A. Like, not clothes on.
12 Q. Did Mr. Jackson do or say anything at that
13 point in time.
14 A. No, he just ran up and just got something
15 and went back down.
16 Q. I’m sorry.
17 A. I think he just ran up there and got
18 something and went back downstairs.
19 Q. Do you recall him saying anything at that
21 A. No.
22 Q. And what was your reaction to what you saw.
23 A. Nothing. It was just kind of like — me and
24 my brother were kind of like, “eeuuww”; you know
25 what I mean.
26 Q. Kind of like what.
27 A. “Eeuuww,” like we never really saw a grown
28 man, like, naked before. 1651
There is a major discrepancy that I want to take the time to point out!
In the excerpt above, Gavin said that he couldn’t recall if Jackson said anything when he entered his bedroom in the nude, but Sneddon stated that Jackson allegedly said that it was “natural” to be nude, and that Star and Gavin should try it! Here is an excerpt from Sneddon’s opening statement:
11 It’s in this room and on that bed where the
12 boys were sitting there watching T.V. one night, and
13 all of a sudden, the defendant appears from the
14 stairwell, absolutely stark naked, with an erection.
15 And when the boys look at him – and Star will say he
16 was grossed out – that the defendant says, “It’s
17 natural. It’s okay. Why don’t you boys do the same
18 thing.” Their response was to get up from the bed
19 and go downstairs and pretend like they had to go to
20 the bathroom.
Notice how under direct examination Star also mentioned that Jackson said it was “natural” as he sat on the bed!
1 Q. Yeah. Anything else unusual that you saw
2 about the defendant, Michael Jackson.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Pardon.
5 A. I don’t know.
6 Q. Do you ever recall an occasion where he
7 walked into the room and you and your brother were
8 on a bed.
9 A. Oh.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
11 THE COURT: Overruled.
12 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Just — do you recall that
13 occasion, when you were sitting on the bed, and he
14 walked into the room.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury
17 what you saw.
18 A. Me and my brother were watching a movie, and
19 Michael walked up naked. And he walked to the
20 corner of the room, picked up something. Me and my
21 brother were grossed out. And he sat on the bed and
22 he told us it was natural, and then he walked back
24 Q. Did either you or your brother say anything
25 to him. Let me break it up, because I don’t want to
26 get a compound problem here.
27 Did you say anything to him when he walked
28 in. 1128
1 A. I was just grossed out.
2 Q. No, but did you say anything to him.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did brother say anything to him in your
6 A. No.
7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: The answer was.
10 A. “No.”
11 Q. How long was it that Mr. Jackson was in the
12 room with you and your brother naked.
13 A. Probably about two minutes.
14 Q. Did you see anything else about Mr. Jackson
15 at that time.
16 A. No.
17 Q. When you say he was naked, what was he
18 wearing, if anything.
19 A. Nothing.
20 Q. Totally naked.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So you could see his private parts.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you see anything about his private
25 parts, one way or the other.
26 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
27 THE COURT: Overruled.
28 THE WITNESS: What. 1129
1 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: I asked you if you saw his
2 private parts.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Anything unusual about his private parts.
5 A. Oh, he had a hard-on.
6 Q. That’s what you call it.
7 A. Well, that’s what Dr. Katz called it, so —
8 Q. What do you call it.
9 A. Erection.
10 Q. Either way, that’s what you saw.
11 A. Yes.
Also, did you notice that Gavin and Star said that Jackson went back downstairs after he retrieved the item that he was looking for, but Sneddon said that Gavin and Star went back downstairs and pretended to have to use the bathroom!
Sneddon’s next point of attack against Jackson was to have Gavin describe another alleged instance of him being offered alcohol in the wine cellar, and being told by Jackson that he shouldn’t take a required urine test for his cancer treatments because the alcohol would surely be detected by the test:
16 Your Honor, I have a clear plastic bag which
17 contains an orangish bottle inside. I’ve shown it
18 to counsel. It’s 349 for identification purposes.
19 And I’d like to show it to the witness at this time.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Do you recognize that.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What’s that.
24 A. The doctor would sometimes order a
25 24-hour-period urine test. And so I would have
26 to — because of my kidney and, like, stuff like
27 that. And so what you do is, you wake up in the
28 morning, and then you start your first pee in the 1658
1 bottle, and then you — all the pees on, until that
2 time again.
3 So, like, say you wake up at eight o’clock.
4 You say, “Okay, this is my morning pee.” I’m going
5 to go pee in this bottle. And then every pee you
6 have to do till eight o’clock the next morning you
7 do in the bottle.
8 Q. Was there ever a time when you were at
9 Neverland Ranch where you had to pee in the bottle.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And take it to a doctor.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And is that the type of bottle that you
14 used, that you had to use.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. At any time while you were on the ranch,
17 Neverland Valley Ranch, did you ever have a
18 discussion with Mr. Jackson about you having to pee
19 in that bottle.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And when was that discussion; do you recall.
22 A. It was down in the cellar, and I was afraid
23 that —
24 Q. I mean, let me just ask a few more questions
25 before I ask you what was said. Okay. You told us
26 it was in the cellar.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Who else was there. 1659
1 A. It was only me and my — me and Michael.
2 Q. Okay. And you’re in the cellar. And can
3 you tell us whether it’s daytime or nighttime.
4 A. I think it was nighttime. Or early night.
5 So it was probably like 7:00 or 8:00.
6 Q. And how did the subject of the urine
7 specimen come up, or urine bottle come up, peeing in
8 the bottle.
9 A. I was afraid that the alcohol would show up
10 in my urine, so I asked Michael, I told him,
11 “Michael, I think the alcohol might show in my
13 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; calls for a
14 narrative; nonresponsive. Move to strike.
15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. So you’re
17 talking to Mr. Jackson.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And now — and you already told us
20 that you told him about the test. Tell us the rest
21 of the conversation, what you told Mr. Jackson.
22 A. I told him that I was afraid that the
23 alcohol was going to show up in my urine when they
24 got the test. So I asked him, “What should I do.”
25 And then he said, “Doo-Doo, just don’t take
26 the test.”
27 Q. He said what.
28 A. “Doo-Doo, just don’t take the test.” 1660
1 Q. What do you mean, “Doo-Doo”.
2 A. Well, he called a lot of kids “Doo-Doo” or
3 “Doo-Doo Head.”
4 Q. Did you say anything back to Mr. Jackson
5 when he told you, “Just don’t take the test”.
6 A. Well, I kind of told him I had to take the
7 test. And he just said, “Don’t take the test.” And
8 then after that, I just kind of nodded my head and
9 didn’t say anything.
10 Q. Did you do any drinking after that.
11 A. Like, we were already in the wine cellar and
12 I had my glass poured.
13 Q. Well, did you drink it.
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Did Mr. Jackson drink.
16 A. Yes.
Notice how Gavin once again confirmed that Jackson called many children “doo-doo head”, which contradicts the media narrative that it was only the young boys that Jackson allegedly preyed upon who were given nicknamed.
And pay attention to the fact that when asked to tell the jury was in the wine cellar, Gavin was about to say “me and my brother” but corrected himself midway through his sentence and said “me and Michael”. This is another indication that he was lying about Jackson serving him alcohol! (A big thanks to our reader Nan who alerted me to this incredible observation!)
Gavin’s testimony continues in the next post: https://michaeljacksonvindication2.wordpress.com/2012/06/15/march-10th-2005-direct-and-cross-examination-of-gavin-arvizo-and-sgt-steve-robel-part-3-of-3/