March 10th, 2005 Direct and Cross Examination of Gavin Arvizo and Sgt. Steve Robel, Part 3 of 3
Next, Sneddon asked Gavin to describe the conversation that he had with his mother Janet about the urine test, the day when he, Janet, and Vincent Amen drove to the hospital to take the test, and how the bottle was allegedly dropped and emptied before arriving at the hospital:
17 Q. Now, at some point later, did you tell
18 anybody that you had been drinking alcohol, other
19 than Mr. Jackson.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Let me rephrase that question, because
22 that’s not a good question.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. At some point, did you tell somebody else
25 that you’d been drinking alcohol in connection with
26 the fact that you had to collect your pee in that
28 A. Yes. 1661
1 Q. Who was that.
2 A. It was my mom.
3 Q. And do you remember where you were when you
4 told your mom.
5 A. I was in Michael’s room, and that phone with
6 all the lines, I called my mom up.
7 Q. Do you know where Mr. Jackson was at the
8 time you made the call.
9 A. He was upstairs on the bed.
10 Q. And when you made the call to your mother,
11 do you remember about what time it was.
12 A. Like four o’clock in the morning.
13 Q. And when was it you were supposed to go to
14 the doctor.
15 A. Well, I was going to start the test that
16 morning. And so the day after that, I guess.
17 Q. How long — did you tell your mother.
18 A. Well —
19 Q. Let me go back. What did you say to your
21 A. Well, I called her, and I told her, “Well,
22 mom, you know how Jesus drank juice” — I mean,
23 “Jesus drank wine.” And then she told me — I don’t
24 know. I don’t remember what exactly she said. She
25 was like, “Yeah.”
26 And then, like, I just tried to tell her,
27 and then I’m not really too sure what happened in
28 that conversation. I know I called my mom and I 1662
1 told her, and then —
2 Q. Do you remember, after you called your mom,
3 anybody coming to the doors and banging on the
5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection, leading.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Do you remember, after the
8 telephone conversation that you had with your
9 mother, that anything unusual occurred.
10 A. No. Because after the conversation I went
11 to sleep.
12 Q. Now, did you — did you at some point go to
13 the doctor’s with that bottle there that’s in front
14 of you.
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Assumes facts not
17 in evidence; misstates the evidence; and leading.
18 THE COURT: Overruled. Do you want the
19 question read back.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 (Record read.)
22 THE COURT: Okay. It’s already in.
23 Okay. We’ll take our break.
24 (Recess taken.)
19 Q. Gavin, we were talking before the break
20 about the bottle.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Did you ever take that to the
23 doctor’s appointment.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And do you recall who went with you.
26 A. I know that Vinnie, my mom and me went, but
27 I don’t know if anybody else went.
28 Q. And do you recall at the time that you left 1664
1 to go to the doctor’s appointment, how much pee you
2 had put in the bottle, just generally.
3 A. It was filled up all the way to the top.
4 Q. And when — when you got in the car, where
5 did you sit in the car.
6 A. I sat right behind my mom. My mom was in
7 the passenger seat, so —
8 Q. And who was doing the driving.
9 A. Vinnie.
10 Q. And at some point between the time you left
11 the ranch with Vinnie and your mother — well, let
12 me go back. Who had the bottle.
13 A. It was, like, sitting — it was on the floor
14 in front of my mom.
15 Q. Now, at some point on the — and when you
16 left the ranch and before you got to Kaiser, did you
17 stop for any reason.
18 A. Yeah. I needed to pee.
19 Q. And so where did you go. Do you remember
20 where you stopped.
21 A. I think we stopped at a Denny’s.
22 Q. And you went inside.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know whether or not your mother went
26 A. Yeah, I’m pretty sure my mom went inside
27 with me.
28 Q. Now, at any time during that trip, did you 1665
1 hear some conversation about the contents of that
2 bottle in front of you with the pee.
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: And with regard to that
8 conversation, who spoke first; do you recall.
9 A. I think it was my mom.
10 Q. Do you recall what she said.
11 A. She said the bottle was empty.
12 Q. And was this before you actually got to the
13 hospital itself and went inside.
14 A. When —
15 Q. If you can answer “yes” or “no” first.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Now, where was it when that
18 conversation occurred.
19 A. Well, it was — we were pulling up to the
20 curb right next to the hospital entrance, and I
21 think my mom was about to pick it up to go inside
22 the hospital, and I think that’s when she figured
23 out that the bottle was empty.
24 Q. Did you actually handle the bottle at any
25 time after that. When she said it was empty, did
26 you pick it up yourself.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Did you go into the hospital with your 1666
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did Vinnie go with you.
4 A. No, I don’t think so. I think he went to go
5 park the car or something.
Remember earlier in his testimony when Gavin couldn’t remember what Jackson allegedly said when he allegedly walked upstairs into his room butt naked, and with an erection? Well, Sneddon surely remembered! And as a result, he tried to coach Gavin into remember what to say by offering to show him his Grand Jury testimony, but Mesereau wisely objected and accused Sneddon of trying to coach Gavin, and Judge Melville initially disallowed it, but then consented once Gavin said the grand jury transcript would help him recollect his memory. He initially remembered testifying about what Jackson allegedly said before the grand jury, but could not remember exactly what he told the grand jury!
5 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. Gavin, I want
6 to go back for just a second. Do you remember me
7 asking you questions about Mr. Jackson coming up the
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the time that you said he was naked.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And I asked you whether or not he said
13 anything to you at that particular point in time.
14 A. Uh-huh.
15 Q. And you said you didn’t recall anything.
16 A. I do not.
17 Q. Do you recall testifying at the grand jury.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You testified there a couple of times, did
20 you not.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. One time that I asked you questions and one
23 time that Mr. Zonen did.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I
26 showed you what you said to the grand jury about
27 that incident.
28 A. Probably. 1668
1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Objection.
2 THE BAILIFF: You have to go — –
3 MR. MESEREAU: Improper question. He can’t
4 coach the witness like that, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: I agree.
6 MR. SNEDDON: I can’t refresh his
7 recollection, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Not till he says he doesn’t
10 THE WITNESS: I do not recollect.
12 THE COURT: Oh, that’s it.
13 MR. SNEDDON: He already said that. Now may
14 I approach the witness.
15 THE COURT: No.
16 MR. SNEDDON: Sorry.
17 Q. Do you have a recollection of what you told
18 the grand jury.
19 A. About that situation.
20 Q. Yeah.
21 A. I don’t recollect anything that he said when
22 he came up there.
23 Q. Do you recall what you told the grand jury
24 about that.
25 A. No.
26 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if you
27 were able to see what you told the grand jury.
28 A. Yes. 1669
1 MR. MESEREAU: I’m going to object, Your
2 Honor. This is highly improper. He’s trying to
3 coach the witness with a transcript.
4 THE COURT: The —
5 MR. MESEREAU: You can’t just lead him along
6 and say —
7 THE COURT: It’s not clear to me what you’re
8 asking about that he doesn’t recollect, so —
9 MR. SNEDDON: I’ll go back and do it again,
10 then, Your Honor.
11 Q. Gavin, with regard to that portion of your
12 testimony, when you indicated to this jury just a
13 little while ago that you had no recollection of
14 what Mr. Jackson said when he walked in front of you
15 naked, do you recall that.
16 A. Yes. Well, he didn’t really walk. He just
17 came up the stairs.
18 Q. He came up the stairs.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you saw that he was naked.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And I asked you if you recall whether he
23 said anything to you, do you recall that, in front
24 of this jury here.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. And you said you did not.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Now, did you testify — 1670
1 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading. They’re
2 all leading questions. Move to strike.
3 MR. SNEDDON: It’s foundational to
4 whether —
5 THE COURT: Overruled. The next question
7 MR. SNEDDON: You interrupted me. I forgot,
9 All right. I think I can —
10 THE COURT: Would you like the court reporter
11 to read it back to you.
12 MR. SNEDDON: I don’t think I got it out.
13 It was one of those senior citizen moments.
14 I do want the last question read back.
15 Thank you.
16 If you don’t mind.
17 (Record read.)
18 MR. SNEDDON: Thank you.
19 Q. Did you testify to an incident before the
20 grand jury with regard to Mr. Jackson coming in.
21 A. I believe I did testify about that.
22 Q. And did you tell them what he said; do you
24 A. I don’t recall him saying anything.
25 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if you
26 were able to look at that testimony.
27 A. Yes.
28 MR. MESEREAU: Same objection. 1671
1 THE COURT: You may — you may show him the
2 testimony to see if it refreshes his recollection.
3 MR. SNEDDON: Thank you, Your Honor.
4 Counsel, page 424, lines 1 to 3.
5 Q. Gavin, I’m going to show you this and — and
6 I just want you to read it to yourself. Don’t say
7 anything about it. Okay.
8 A. All right.
9 MR. SNEDDON: Actually, Counsel, I’m looking
10 to start on the lines before, just so he gets the
11 whole incident. I’ll start at line 24.
12 Q. All right. Having read your grand jury
13 testimony, does that refresh your recollection as to
14 what you told the ladies and gentlemen of the grand
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What did you tell them about whether or not
18 the defendant made any statements.
19 A. Oh, we were sitting on the bed. When me and
20 my brother were “eeuuww,” that’s when Michael said,
21 “It’s okay,” that it’s natural. And I remember that
22 by reading the grand jury testimony.
23 Q. So that refreshed your recollection.
24 A. Yes.
Surprisingly, in this next excerpt Gavin confirms that Jackson really did help him with his homework while he was at Neverland. Star and Davellin both stated that all of the positive things they said about Jackson in the rebuttal video were scripted and untrue:
12 Q. All right. With regard to the items, 348,
13 that are in front of you, some of those items that
14 are in front of you look like you have some writing
15 on them. Did you ever do any homework while you
16 were at Neverland.
17 A. I think I, like, started and never —
18 Q. I can’t hear you.
19 A. I probably started, like, one assignment,
20 and then never finished it, and then went and played
21 some more.
22 Q. I can’t hear you.
23 A. I think I just started like one, like,
24 homework, but I didn’t finish and just went and
25 played some more.
26 Q. Now, on the rebuttal video — do you
27 remember that.
28 A. Yes. 1673
1 Q. Do you remember somebody making a comment
2 about Mr. Jackson helping with their homework.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did he ever help you with your homework.
5 A. Yeah, I think that was the time. Like, I
6 was in his room.
7 Q. You were in his room.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. And he helped you.
10 A. Well, for that part. And then we started,
11 like, playing around.
Finally, Sneddon finished his direct examination with a huge crescendo! He wanted Gavin to go out with a bang, so he asked him to describe the two instances of abuse at the hands of Jackson that he could remember (as he claimed that there may have been others, but he was too intoxicated too remember). His testimony is pretty self-explanatory, so I’ll let him explain it himself:
25 Q. — at any time while you were at Neverland
26 Ranch, did Mr. Jackson ever touch you
28 A. Yes. 1678
1 Q. All right. How many times.
2 A. What I saw in my memory is only twice, but,
3 I mean, there’s — like I kind of feel it was more
4 than twice, but, I mean, the only times that I saw
5 in my mind that he did it was only twice.
6 Q. All right. Tell us about the first
8 A. The first time — well, my brother stopped
9 sleeping in our room with us.
10 Q. You’re going to have to slow down and talk
11 right into that mike now. I know you’re nervous,
12 but go ahead.
13 A. My — my brother had stopped sleeping in our
14 room and —
15 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.
16 Move to strike.
17 MR. SNEDDON: I’ll lay some foundation, Your
19 THE COURT: Stricken.
20 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Gavin, the first time he
21 touched you, where were you. What room.
22 A. We were in his room.
23 Q. Where were you in his room.
24 A. On the bed.
25 Q. Was there anybody else present besides you
26 and Mr. Jackson.
27 A. No, I think it was only us.
28 Q. Now, you told the ladies and gentlemen of 1679
1 the jury that on many occasions, that you and your
2 brother and Mr. Jackson shared a bed in his bedroom,
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. On this particular occasion, had your
6 brother Star been with you and Mr. Jackson in bed
7 before that.
8 A. Before this —
9 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
10 MR. SNEDDON: That’s a terrible question
11 anyhow. I’ll withdraw it.
12 Q. Was there a period of time where your
13 brother Star stopped sleeping with you and Mr.
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
17 THE COURT: Overruled. The answer was “Yes.”
18 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: And was it before or after
19 the time that Mr. Jackson touched you for the first
21 A. When my brother stopped.
22 Q. Yeah.
23 A. It was before, because he stopped sleeping
24 in our room — in the room.
25 Q. All right. Tell the jury how it came about
26 that you and Mr. Jackson were in bed together and
27 what you were doing.
28 A. Well, we were — well, we just had come back 1680
1 from drinking a lot in the arcade, and it was —
2 Q. Doing what.
3 A. Drinking in the arcade.
4 Q. Can you pull that down just a little bit.
5 There. Okay. Go ahead.
6 A. We just came back from drinking in the
7 arcade, and then we went up to his room. And then
8 we were sitting there for a while, and Michael
9 started talking to me about masturbation.
10 Q. So you were in the room for a while and the
11 defendant started talking to you about masturbation.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What did he say to you.
14 A. He — he told me — he said that if men
15 don’t masturbate, that they can get to a level where
16 they can — might rape a girl or they might be,
17 like, kind of unstable. So he was telling me that
18 guys have to masturbate.
19 And he told me a story that —
20 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.
21 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. We’ll stop
22 right there.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. What else did he say to you.
25 A. He told me a story of he saw a boy one
26 time – he was looking over a balcony or something –
27 and he saw a boy who didn’t masturbate and he had
28 sex with a dog. 1681
1 Q. Did he tell you anything else during this
3 A. That particular section. Or —
4 Q. Yeah. I mean, did he tell you anything
6 A. He told me that boys had to masturbate, or
7 males have to masturbate.
8 Q. Okay.
9 THE BAILIFF: They cannot hear.
10 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: They couldn’t hear what you
11 had to say, Gavin. I know it’s hard. Lean right
12 into it.
13 A. He told me that males have to masturbate.
14 Q. All right. Now, when he said that, what, if
15 anything, did he do or say after that.
16 A. He said that if I masturbated; and I told
17 him that I didn’t. And then he said if I didn’t
18 know how, that he would do it for me.
19 Q. And what did you say.
20 A. And I said I didn’t really want to.
21 Q. All right. And then what happened.
22 A. And then he said it was okay, that it was
23 natural, and that it’s natural for boys to do it.
24 Q. All right. What happened after that.
25 A. And then so he — we were under the covers,
26 and I had his pajamas on, because he had this big
27 thing of pajamas and he gave me his pajamas.
28 Q. Okay. 1682
1 A. And so I was under his covers, and then
2 that’s when he put his hand in my pants and then he
3 started masturbating me.
4 Q. Could you see Mr. Jackson while he was doing
5 that to you.
6 A. Not really. I wasn’t really looking at him.
7 Q. Could you tell whether or not he was moving.
8 A. Well, he was — he was himself.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. I wasn’t really looking at him. All I
11 could — I could kind of feel him moving, but, I
12 mean, I never really saw him moving.
13 Q. Do you know approximately how long Mr.
14 Jackson masturbated you.
15 A. Maybe five minutes, I guess.
16 Q. Did — do you know what an “ejaculation” is.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And did you have an ejaculation.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did Mr. Jackson say anything to you
22 A. I kind of felt weird. I was embarrassed
23 about it. And then he said it was okay; that it was
25 Q. Did anything else happen that evening
26 between you and Mr. Jackson.
27 A. No. We just — after that, we just — he
28 tried to say that it was okay and that — kind of 1683
1 like to comfort me, because I felt weird. I felt
2 weird about it. And then after a while, we just
3 went to sleep.
4 Q. Was there any other occasion where Mr.
5 Jackson touched you.
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. When was that.
8 A. Well, there was about a day after that, he
9 did it — he did it one more time.
10 Q. All right. Where were you.
11 A. In his bed.
12 Q. And was it daytime or nighttime.
13 A. It was nighttime.
14 Q. And who else was — was there anybody else
15 present besides you and Mr. Jackson.
16 A. No.
17 Q. And what were you doing up in his bedroom at
18 this point in time.
19 A. Well, we just came back from the arcade
20 again, and then we went up to his room. And then we
21 were sitting — I think we were watching T.V. or
22 something, and then we were on top of his covers,
23 and he did it again.
24 Q. How were you dressed on this occasion.
25 A. In his pajamas again, because I would always
26 use his pajamas.
27 Q. All right. And how was Mr. Jackson dressed;
28 do you remember. 1684
1 A. He was in his pajamas, too.
2 Q. Now, with — tell us what happened.
3 A. The same thing happened again. And he said
4 that he wanted to teach me. And then we were laying
5 there, and then he started doing it to me. And then
6 he kind of grabbed my hand in a way to try to do it
7 to him. And I kind of — I pulled my hand away,
8 because I didn’t want to do it.
9 Q. Did Mr. Jackson say anything before he
10 reached over and grabbed your private parts.
11 A. He would always say that it was natural and,
12 “Don’t be scared,” and it was okay.
13 Q. Now, how long do you think it lasted the
14 second time.
15 A. The same time.
16 Q. Did you ejaculate the second time.
17 A. I think I did.
18 Q. Now, when was it, at point in time, that Mr.
19 Jackson reached over and grabbed your arm.
20 A. Maybe like halfway through it.
21 Q. Did you say anything to him when you pulled
22 your hand away.
23 A. I said that I didn’t want to.
24 Q. Did Mr. Jackson say anything to you.
25 A. I don’t think he did.
26 Q. Were there any other occasions where Mr.
27 Jackson tried to do something to you that you felt
28 was inappropriate, that you remember. 1685
1 A. No.
2 MR. SNEDDON: Nothing further, Your Honor.
Did you notice in Paragraph 1682, Line 3, Gavin used the word “section” instead of “incident” or “occurrence” when he was asked to describe the time when Jackson allegedly told him that boys have to masturbate? That slip up is indicative of the fact that Gavin was going through his “mental rolodex” of rehearsed lies! He obviously put his lies into “sections” (e.g., the “boys must masturbate” lie, the “Jackson molested me” lie, the “I drank wine with Jackson in the wine cellar” lie, etc.)
This is consistent with the descriptions that Gavin’s father David gave about Gavin memorizing a script that was written by Janet Arvizo prior to his JC Penney deposition. Gavin was an experienced actor and liar (in fact, according to David, Janet was far more concerned with Star’s believability in his deposition than Gavin’s), and even one of his former teachers said he was a good actor, but as you can see in the excerpt above, he slipped up and our reader Nan was able to catch it! Thanks for letting us know, Nan!
The photo above couldn’t be more appropriate!
Mesereau began his cross examination with his usual introduction of how he speaks for Jackson, and not the government, and immediately questioned Gavin about the timing of his alleged abuse, the credibility of his story of being abused after the airing of the Bashir documentary, the fact that the allegations came up only after the Arvizos met with two civil lawyers, and other pertinent facts. Mesereau was all over the place on the first day of his cross-examination, and he was obviously trying to throw Gavin off of his rehearsed speech, in order to get him flustered and agitated in front of the jury. Mesereau was admonished several times for interrupting Gavin as he gave his answers, and this is a sign that Mesereau was hyper and excited, and couldn’t wait to trap Gavin in his own lies. Judge Melville also had to admonish both Mesereau and Gavin for arguing with each other.
Since Gavin was by far the most important witness for the prosecution, I will focus an incredible amount of time dissecting his testimony, and his summary will be much longer and more detailed than any other witness in this case, so fasten your seat belts! This flight is about to encounter some major turbulence!
6 BY MR. MESEREAU:
7 Q. Gavin, my name is Thomas Mesereau and I
8 speak for Mr. Jackson. Okay.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. I’m on his side. All right.
11 A. All right.
12 Q. Not the government. I’m on Mr. Jackson’s
13 side. Okay.
14 We’ve never spoken before, right.
15 A. No.
16 Q. We’ve never met, right.
17 A. No.
18 Q. If I ask you any question and you don’t
19 understand the question, just say so. Don’t answer
20 it. Okay.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. If something seems unclear, just say, “It’s
23 unclear, I don’t understand it.” Okay. And I’ll
24 try and rephrase it.
25 A. Okay.
26 Q. Now, you’ve told the jury that it was not
27 till after your interview with three social workers
28 that any inappropriate touching happened, right. 1686
1 A. Hmm.
2 Q. Did you tell the jury that it was not until
3 after your interview with three social workers in
4 Los Angeles —
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. — that Mr. Jackson inappropriately touched
8 A. It was after.
9 Q. It was after, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, in that interview, you told the three
12 social workers that Mr. Jackson was a good guy,
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You said he had been like a father figure to
16 you, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You said he had helped you with your cancer,
20 A. Um, I don’t know in that interview if I did.
21 But I just said he was a good guy.
22 Q. You said a lot of good things about him,
24 A. Pretty much, yeah.
25 Q. Okay. Now, that was the point in time where
26 you claim that Mr. Jackson wanted your family to go
27 to Brazil, right.
28 A. I don’t know if I told the social workers 1687
1 that we were going to go to Brazil. I don’t think I
3 Q. But your statement about Mr. Jackson and
4 Frank wanting you to go to Brazil was before or
5 after the three social workers interviewed you.
6 A. The statement to who.
7 Q. You said that Mr. Jackson said something
8 about wanting you to go to Brazil, didn’t you.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And when was that, approximately.
11 A. When Michael wanted me to go to Brazil.
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. I’m not too sure.
14 Q. Was it before or after you interviewed the
15 three social workers — or, excuse me, they
16 interviewed you.
17 A. I’m not too sure, but I believe —
18 Q. Well, you left Neverland —
19 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, he’s answering the
21 MR. MESEREAU: Pardon me. Pardon me.
22 THE COURT: Go ahead.
23 THE WITNESS: I believe we went to Calabasas
24 after — I think it was after the social workers.
25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: So you went to Calabasas
26 after the interview with the social workers, right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. The interview with the social workers was at 1688
1 Jay Jackson’s apartment, right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And Vinnie took you to Calabasas, correct.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You stayed at the Calabasas Inn, right.
6 A. Vinnie and Frank took us there.
7 Q. Yes. You went right to the Calabasas Inn
8 from the interview, right.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Where did you go after the interview.
11 A. Aja took us up to Neverland.
12 Q. And you had a discussion — the plans for
13 Brazil were already being discussed, weren’t they.
14 A. Not with me.
15 Q. Well, you’d heard about it.
16 A. I don’t know if I had.
17 Q. Well, let me just ask you this: You
18 complained after the Bashir documentary that people
19 in the school yard were making fun of you, correct.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You went to Florida right after that.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You came back, right.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. There were media around your house, right.
26 A. I can’t — I don’t know, because I didn’t
27 even — from Miami I went to Neverland.
28 Q. Well, the DCFS interview, the interview with 1689
1 the social workers, had to do with an investigation
2 of Mr. Jackson, true.
3 A. Yes, and as a result of the Martin Bashir
5 Q. Yes. And you went to Calabasas after that,
7 A. No, I went up with Aja to Neverland.
8 Q. How long were you at Neverland then.
9 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, excuse me, the
10 witness didn’t get a chance to finish his answer.
11 MR. MESEREAU: I’m sorry. I’m sorry.
12 THE WITNESS: After — after the DCSF, we
13 went up to Neverland with Aja.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Yes.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, there
17 were plans in effect to take you to Brazil, right.
18 A. I don’t know. I’m not sure if I knew about
19 them at that time.
20 Q. So what you’re telling the jury is that
21 after you were interviewed by three social workers
22 investigating Michael Jackson and after all the
23 commotion that followed the Bashir documentary,
24 somehow Mr. Jackson starts to improperly touch you,
26 A. No, it was more toward the end. Toward when
27 we were already about to leave, after we’d been
28 drinking alcohol and all that stuff. It wasn’t 1690
1 directly after the DCSF. It was more toward the end
2 of the —
3 Q. So right before you’re supposed to leave to
4 Brazil —
5 A. No, right before we left Neverland.
6 Q. Oh, right before you left Neverland for
8 A. No, right before — maybe a few days.
9 Q. A few days before you left Neverland for
11 A. Yes, because — yeah.
12 Q. Okay. So it’s actually a little bit after
13 the interview with the social workers, then, right.
14 A. Maybe it’s a little bit after. And it’s
15 probably — I don’t think it happened right — like,
16 it didn’t happen, like, the day — like, he did it,
17 and then the day after, we left. I don’t think it
18 happened like that.
19 Q. But it’s right before you leave Neverland
20 for good, right.
21 A. Maybe a week before, or something like that.
22 Q. Okay. Okay. And you’ve already had the
23 interview with the social workers, as you said,
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. You’ve already been to the Calabasas Inn,
28 A. Yes. 1691
1 Q. And you’ve already left the Calabasas Inn
2 and gone by The Laugh Factory and met with an
3 attorney, right.
4 A. I believe so.
5 Q. So after you meet with an attorney, you
6 suddenly come up with a story that you were
7 masturbated by Michael Jackson, correct.
8 MR. SNEDDON: Object. Argumentative, Your
10 THE WITNESS: No, because —
11 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me.
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 You can go ahead and answer.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Correct.
15 A. No, because I did not tell the attorney
16 anything about what Michael was doing.
17 Q. But you’re saying it started after —
18 A. Yes, I did not tell the attorney anything
19 about alcohol or anything like that.
20 Q. Okay. Okay. Vinnie takes you, your mom,
21 and Star to The Laugh Factory on Sunset, correct.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You and your mom get out of the car, right.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You go into The Laugh Factory on Sunset,
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. You meet with Jamie Masada and an attorney 1692
1 named William Dickerman, correct.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You have a meeting with the two of them,
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You come back, you get in the car, right.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You go back to Neverland, right.
9 A. I think we did.
10 Q. And then you leave Neverland again, right.
11 A. I don’t know. I think. I guess.
12 Q. And not long after your meeting with the
13 attorney, you say that Mr. Jackson inappropriately
14 masturbates you, true.
15 A. No, because I didn’t really say it right
16 after I met him. I didn’t.
17 Q. It was a while after you met him, right.
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. That’s when the inappropriate touching
21 A. I didn’t — the only person I said it to was
22 to my psychologist, Dr. Katz, and the officer, Steve
23 Robel, and Paul Zelis, that’s —
24 Q. We’ll get to that. You first went to
25 Attorney Larry Feldman after Attorney William
26 Dickerman, correct.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And Attorney Larry Feldman then referred you 1693
1 to a psychologist, right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When you first went to Attorney William
4 Dickerman, you were talking about being harassed and
5 things of that sort, correct.
6 A. I — I don’t remember what I talked about.
7 Q. Well, you met with him with your mom, true.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then you and your mom met with Larry
10 Feldman, right.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It was only after you met with Larry Feldman
13 that you started talking about inappropriate
14 touching, true.
15 A. I didn’t talk — I didn’t randomly talk
16 about it with people.
17 Q. Well, I didn’t ask if you randomly talked
18 about it. I asked if you talked about it.
19 A. Who are you specifying that I talked about
20 it to.
21 Q. Larry Feldman, whom you knew had sued
22 Michael Jackson in the early ‘90s, right.
23 A. No, I did not tell anything like that to
24 Larry Feldman. The only person I told anything even
25 resolving (sic) to that was Dr. Katz. And I told
26 the whole story to Steve Robel and Paul Zelis.
27 Q. But, no, you first went to the two lawyers,
28 a psychologist, before you went to any police 1694
1 officer, true.
2 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object as
3 argumentative by saying “no” in the beginning.
4 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll rephrase it, if you
5 want, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right.
Next, Mesereau began to question Gavin about whether or not he lied during his deposition for the JC Penney lawsuit; Gavin claimed that he did not tell a single lie, but the truth of his deposition will be revealed later on in this trial.
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You went to two lawyers,
8 and a psychologist whom Larry Feldman referred you
9 to, before you went to any police officer, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, these weren’t the first attorneys
12 you’ve ever talked to, correct.
13 A. I’ve talked to other people, other attorneys
15 Q. Well, you had an attorney representing you
16 in the J.C. Penney case, correct.
17 A. I think so. I’m pretty sure.
18 Q. You testified under oath in that case,
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you tell the truth under oath in that
23 A. Of course.
24 Q. Didn’t tell one solitary lie.
25 A. No.
26 Q. You said that security guards had body
27 slammed your mother in a parking lot.
28 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to 1695
1 object. 403 ruling.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
Here is the first of many discrepancies in Gavin testimony, compared to previous testimonies and interviews: he initially said that the inappropriate touching by Jackson started “maybe a week or two” before his family left Neverland for the last time, but during his grand jury testimony on April 15th, 2004, Gavin told Assistant District Attorney Ron Zonen that ALL of the acts of abuse by Jackson – including the events that he claimed he was too intoxicated to remember – occurred within the last few days that he was at Neverland! First, here is his excerpt from Mesereau’s cross-examination:
3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: How many days — just a
4 couple of days before you left Neverland for good,
5 you’re saying this inappropriate touching went on.
6 A. No, I said probably — maybe a week or two.
7 Q. Couple of days. You said a couple days
8 before, didn’t you.
9 A. No, I said maybe a week or two.
10 Q. Well, but after you went with the lawyer,
11 though, right.
12 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
14 MR. MESEREAU: All right. It’s asked and
15 answered. I’ll rephrase.
16 MR. SNEDDON: That, too.
Now, here is his excerpt from his grand jury testimony; notice how Zonen asked Gavin to confirm that ALL of the alleged events of abuse took place within the last few days:
Q. Okay. All right. We had talked about the two events. You had actually testified that there might have been more but you were more intoxicated on those events; is that right?
Q. Do you know when that took place?
A. The last few days that we were there.
Q. It was all within the last few days; is that right?
A. Yeah. It was….
Mr. Zonen: I have no further questions. Go ahead.
Next, Mesereau challenged Gavin on his statements during direct examination that Jackson “didn’t do much” for his cancer by having Gavin confirm that Jackson called him at the hospital, invited him to Neverland, gave his family an SUV to travel to the hospital for his appointments, and many other nice things, yet Gavin showed little gratitude towards Jackson and tried to downplay everything he did. At one point, Judge Melville instructed Mesereau and Gavin to not argue with each other.
17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, you told the jury
18 yesterday that Michael Jackson didn’t do much for
19 your cancer, correct.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was that a true statement.
22 A. Yeah, because I didn’t see him much. He
23 would tell me that he wasn’t there, when he was
24 there at the ranch. And it made me really sad,
25 because in my mind, he was my best friend in the
26 whole world, and my best friend was trying to avoid
27 me while I had cancer.
28 Q. Did Michael Jackson call you at the hospital 1696
1 while you had cancer.
2 A. Yes, he called me and invited me up to the
4 Q. He talked to you a lot in the hospital,
5 didn’t he.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you remember telling the police in your
8 first interview — you were asked the question, “And
9 did you talk to him a lot while you were in the
11 “A. I talked to him a lot. Like, he would
12 call and I’d call him and stuff, and we’d just
13 talk about, like, video games.”
14 Do you remember that.
15 A. Yeah. I probably meant lengthy conversation
16 as in time.
17 Q. You were then asked, “How often did he call
19 “I don’t know. But I think it was probably
20 at least three times a week or something.”
21 Do you remember that.
22 A. Yeah. Including outside of the hospital.
23 My grandmother’s house.
24 Q. But that’s not what you told the sheriffs,
25 was it. You told him that he called you
26 approximately three times a week.
27 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me. He’s not even
28 giving the witness a chance to answer the question. 1697
1 MR. MESEREAU: I thought he answered the
3 THE COURT: You’re cutting him off.
4 MR. MESEREAU: I apologize. Pardon me.
5 Let’s go over it again.
6 Q. You told Santa Barbara Sheriffs in your
7 first interview, Mr. Arvizo, that Michael Jackson
8 called you about three times a week at the hospital
9 and you would talk for two or three hours at a time,
11 A. Yeah. During the — probably during the
12 period of when — in the beginning, of the first
13 few — two months of my cancer where I was actually
14 going and hanging out with Michael. And after those
15 two months, it was all cut off.
16 Q. Did you tell the Santa Barbara Sheriffs that
17 when you were in the hospital with cancer —
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. — Michael Jackson would call you at least
20 three times a week, and speak to you for an hour,
21 two hours or three hours at a time.
22 A. Michael would call me during the —
23 probably — during the beginning of my cancer,
24 probably three times a week. And I would call him
25 and we would talk for a long time. We would talk
26 about video games. We would talk about people he
27 knew, people I knew, stuff like that.
28 Q. In the hospital, right. 1698
1 A. Sometimes he would call me in the hospital.
2 Q. I’d like to explore your statement to the
3 jury that he didn’t do much to you — much for you
4 when you had cancer.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. You’ve just talked about the calls, right.
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. He invites your family to his home, correct.
9 A. He invited us to Neverland in the beginning,
11 Q. He lets your family stay at his home for
12 weeks, correct.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. He gives you a car to use, true.
15 A. Yes, same car he takes back in the middle of
16 the time that I really needed a — that my family
17 needed a car.
18 Q. Gives your family an SUV so they can go back
19 and forth to the hospital, right.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Gives you a computer, right.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Flies your family to Florida and lets them
24 stay at a resort for two nights, right.
25 A. No, he took me to Florida in result of the
26 Martin Bashir documentary that was being aired.
27 Q. Did your family stay at the resort hotel
28 called Turnberry in Florida. 1699
1 A. Michael put us up in the resort, in the
3 Q. Did you get a massage.
4 A. Yes. Chris Tucker paid for that massage.
5 Q. Okay. Did you get a massage.
6 A. Yes. Chris Tucker paid for that massage.
7 Q. Did you get a watch —
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. — from Mr. Jackson.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you get a jacket from Mr. Jackson.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did your family go back and forth and stay
14 at Neverland free.
15 A. Everyone stays at Neverland for free.
16 Q. Well, who do you think pays the bills.
17 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
19 THE COURT: Well, on both parts. Let’s start
20 another question. Don’t —
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo —
22 THE COURT: Just a minute. I’m sorry. I’ll
23 instruct both the witness and the attorney not to
24 argue with each other.
After that admonishment, Mesereau continued where he left off by asking about Jackson’s generosity, and then pivoted towards Gavin’s first, second, and third “escape” from Neverland, to which Gavin sarcastically answered “Whatever” when asked to acknowledge his second escape. Later on in this excerpt, Gavin describes the anger that his “11 year old mind” felt towards Jackson, who didn’t do as much as he felt he should, and he contrasted that to Louise Palanker, George Lopez, and Jamie Masada, who he claimed never did that to him:
25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, your family
26 would stay for weeks free of charge at Neverland,
28 A. Yes. 1700
1 Q. Your meals would be paid by — for by Mr.
2 Jackson, true.
3 A. Probably. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know someone else that paid for it.
5 A. No. But I was pretty sure it was Michael.
6 Q. You would travel by limousine back and
7 forth, true.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You also traveled by Rolls Royce on
10 occasion, true.
11 A. No, I only traveled in a Rolls Royce when I
12 was escaping from Neverland with Jesus.
13 Q. When you were escaping.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you went back — how long after you
16 escaped did you go back there again.
17 A. I think a few days later, when Vinnie and
18 Frank came down.
19 Q. Okay. Okay. When you escaped, where did
20 Jesus take you.
21 A. He took me to my grandmother’s house.
22 Q. And then two days later you went back with
24 A. I don’t know about two days, but maybe a few
26 Q. So you went back, and then you escaped a
27 second time, right.
28 A. I think so. Whatever. 1701
1 Q. And then you went back and you escaped a
2 third time, right.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Well, there were like three escapes, weren’t
6 A. I don’t know.
7 Q. Okay. Have you ever talked to Mr. Sneddon
8 about how many times you people went back
9 voluntarily and then escaped from Neverland.
10 A. Mr. Sneddon.
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. I think we did. I’m pretty sure we did.
13 Q. When you were at Neverland, you would use
14 the amusement park when you wanted, correct.
15 A. Yes. But — well, I couldn’t always do it
16 because I would feel sick all the time —
17 Q. Well —
18 A. — with cancer.
19 Q. — who do you think paid the utilities to
20 run all the amusement rides at Neverland.
21 A. Probably Michael.
22 Q. And you would use the zoo when you wanted,
24 A. No, because I wouldn’t go to the zoo.
25 Michael would take us over there when he wanted to
26 take us over there, and we’d see the tigers.
27 Q. Who do you think was paying for all of that.
28 A. Michael, because Michael wanted all that in 1702
1 his house.
2 Q. Oh. And do you think he was really being
3 good to you by letting you stay there and go to the
4 zoo, the amusement rides.
5 A. He probably was. But, I mean, this is
6 talking about the first few months. And I don’t
7 really — see, Mr. Mesereau, it takes more —
8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection, Your Honor. Could
9 he just answer the question.
10 THE COURT: Sustained.
11 Just answer the question.
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you use ATV’s at
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Q. Who paid for the ATV’s.
16 A. I’m pretty sure Michael paid for the ATV’s.
17 Q. What else did you do at Neverland when you
18 used to hang out there with your brother, your
19 sister, your father, your mother.
20 A. Probably be in my unit, because I was sick.
21 Q. Was there a blood drive for you at
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. And Mr. Jackson put that together, didn’t
26 A. Probably.
27 Q. You don’t know.
28 A. No, I heard something about a blood drive, 1703
1 but I can’t really remember too much about it.
2 Q. You don’t remember a blood drive at
3 Neverland that Mr. Jackson put together for you when
4 you had cancer.
5 A. I remember — I remember something about my
6 friend — my friend had come down to the hospital
7 and told me about it, but I don’t — I remember
8 something about a blood drive, but I’m not too sure
9 about it. He — I’m pretty sure he did.
10 Q. Now, I believe you told the jury yesterday
11 you thought George Lopez did more for you when you
12 had cancer than Michael Jackson, correct.
13 A. Yeah. For my 11 year-old mind, he came and
14 visited me and would always talk to me and buy me
15 shirts and stuff.
16 Q. Did Mr. Lopez let your family move into his
18 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, did Mr. Lopez
22 give you a Rolls Royce for your family to ride
23 around town in.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did he provide limousines for your family to
26 ride around town in.
27 A. No.
28 Q. Did he pay a lot of your bills so your 1704
1 family could stay at hotels.
2 A. I don’t know. That’s up to my —
3 Q. Did he pay for flights so your family could
4 go cross country.
5 A. I’m pretty sure he did, to pay for us to go
6 to Miami.
7 Q. How many times do you think your family
8 visited Neverland and stayed there.
9 A. Every time Michael wanted us to.
10 Q. But you went there many times when Michael
11 wasn’t even there, right, Mr. Arvizo.
12 A. Only with Michael’s permission.
13 Q. Did you and your family go to Neverland and
14 stay many times when Michael Jackson wasn’t even
16 A. I would. Not my whole family. Me and my
17 father would. Because in the first two months of my
18 cancer, when I was — when I thought I was pretty
19 close to Michael, I would go up there and stay with
20 him between my rounds of chemotherapy.
21 Q. Can you look this jury in eye and tell them
22 Michael Jackson did nothing for you when you had
24 A. I never said Michael did nothing for me.
25 Q. Did you say he did very little.
26 A. Yeah. He didn’t do as much as I felt, as my
27 11-year-old mind felt.
28 Q. He should. 1705
1 A. No. He shouldn’t — it’s not his obligation
2 to do anything.
3 Q. Well, are you telling the jury you deserved
4 a lot more from Michael Jackson than you and your
5 family got.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Is that what you’re saying.
8 A. No. I’m just saying that — see, when I
9 have a friend, Michael, and you’re saying all these
10 things that he did, but, you know, when my
11 11-year-old mind — and when I see my friend say
12 that he’s not there, and he’s not at Neverland Ranch
13 trying — and I see him walking and I see his car
14 that he only drives going down at Neverland, you
15 know, it felt like my heart broke right there.
16 Q. So by doing all of these things —
17 A. And I don’t remember George Lopez or Jamie
18 Masada or Louise Palanker ever doing that to me.
19 Q. Did they take your family into their homes,
20 any of them.
21 A. Actually, I went over to — actually, I
22 spent a night at Chris Tucker’s house.
23 Q. Did he let your family move into his home;
24 yes or no.
25 A. I’m sure he probably would have if we really
26 got to a point where we couldn’t live at our house
27 no more.
28 Q. There isn’t one celebrity that you 1706
1 approached who let your family move into his home,
2 except Michael Jackson, true.
3 A. I didn’t —
4 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me. I’m going to
5 object to the question. Assumes a fact not in
6 evidence, and it’s argumentative.
7 THE COURT: Overruled.
8 THE WITNESS: I never moved into Michael’s
9 house. I never moved my stuff over there and lived
10 there permanently. I stood there and visited.
11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Your family was there for
12 weeks at a time, correct.
13 A. Yes. And they also kept us there for weeks
14 at a time when we wanted to leave.
15 Q. Is this one of your many escapes where you
16 came back.
17 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 MR. MESEREAU: I withdraw it, Your Honor.
Here is what Mesereau had to say about Gavin’s unemotional testimony during a Spring 2007 law school seminar at Cumberland School of Law; the ONLY TIME Gavin became emotional was when he described how upset he was at MJ for abandoning his family!
As clever as this thirteen-year-old boy was, he was not smart enough. He had lied previously in a civil deposition where his mother made false claims that she was molested by security guards at JC Penny stores. In my cross-examination, I spent a lot of time trying to reveal to the jury who this thirteen-year-old really was. I could not have done so if I confined him to “yes” or “no” answers. You only learn who people really are when they talk and reveal themselves. I believed self-revelation was worth the price of relinquishing witness control.
I warmed up this witness for the key question. My questions went something like this:
“You and your family wanted to stay at Neverland, correct?”
“You wanted to take trips with Michael Jackson and did so, right?”
“You went on amusement rides with Michael Jackson, didn’t you?”
“Michael Jackson introduced you to people you could only dream about actually meeting, right?”
“And at some point you became very angry at Michael Jackson, didn’t you?”
This child accuser began to ramble about how Michael had abandoned him and his family. He never mentioned anything about child molestation!
And here is an interesting post from the Vindicate MJ blog that contrasts the testimonies of real and fake victims of child abuse; the post is appropriately titled “How To Tell A True Testimony From A Fake One”. In that post, excerpts of Gavin Arvizo’s testimony and Jordan Chandler’s interview with Dr. Gardner were placed side by side with the testimonies of real victims of child abuse, and readers were asked to guess which ones were false. It’s easy to tell that Gavin and Jordan were lying due to their complete lack of emotion!
Similarly, let’s let at how Diane Dimond described the emotions of a real victim of child abuse (one of Jerry Sandusky’s victims), and contrast it to how she tried to spin Gavin’s testimony in 2005 to make him sound believable!
For more information on the emotions of Jerry Sandusky’s accuser, read this article.
Next, Mesereau asked Gavin if he could remember anything about his final escape from Neverland to his grandparent’s house, in which Vincent Amen drove his family there, but Gavin once again suffered a convenient memory lapse:
21 Q. Mr. Arvizo, when your family decided not to
22 go to Brazil, where did they go.
23 A. What do you mean.
24 Q. Well, when your family decided they didn’t
25 want to go to Brazil, they went to your
26 grandparents’ house, right.
27 A. When we left with Jesus, we went to my
28 grandma’s house. I don’t really understand. 1707
1 Q. When you left with Vinnie for the final
2 time, you went to your grandparents’, right.
3 A. I don’t really — as I told Mr. Sneddon, I
4 don’t really remember how it came about that we left
5 the last time.
6 Q. I’m not asking you how it came about. But
7 you got in a car with Vinnie and went to your
8 grandparents’ the last time.
9 A. Now you’re telling — right now you’re
10 telling me how it came about. I don’t know how it
11 came about.
12 Q. Do you recall Vinnie taking your family to
13 your grandparents’ when you left Neverland for good.
14 A. No, because I do not remember what happened
15 when we left for the last time.
16 Q. Do you remember leaving for the last time at
18 A. I know that we left, because I remember, I
19 went to my grandma’s house.
20 Q. When you say you escaped with Jesus, where
21 did you escape to.
22 A. We went to my grandma’s house.
23 Q. Jesus took you in a Rolls Royce to your
24 grandma’s house, right.
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. When your family wanted to leave, they left,
28 MR. SNEDDON: Object; argumentative. 1708
1 THE COURT: Overruled.
2 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question.
3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When your family wanted to
4 leave Neverland, you either had a limousine or a
5 Rolls Royce take you where you wanted to go, right.
6 A. No. It wasn’t a limousine. And we never
7 left in a limousine, because when we left it was
8 when they didn’t really know.
9 Q. It was a Rolls Royce, wasn’t it.
10 A. Yes, because that was the only car
11 available. It wasn’t as if we told Jesus to take us
12 in a Rolls Royce.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. It was a vehicle. An automobile that we can
15 use to leave.
In the final excerpt of the day, Mesereau questioned Gavin about whether or not any lawyers instructed him on what to say during his JC Penney deposition, and Gavin initially said he couldn’t remember, but when he was shown his deposition transcript, he denied he had said what was on the transcript!
Finally, Judge Melville announced to the court (outside the presence of the jury) that Jackson’s bond had been reinstated and his arrest warrant had been recalled since he was able to make it to court in time.
16 Q. Has any lawyer told you what to say in this
18 A. No.
19 Q. Has any lawyer ever told you what to say
20 under oath.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Remember, your deposition was taken in the
23 J.C. Penney case.
24 A. Yes. It was taken when I had cancer,
25 because I was unable to show up at the court case.
26 Q. And that was when you and your mom were
27 suing J.C. Penney, correct.
28 A. I believe it was my whole family that was 1709
1 suing them.
2 Q. Did a lawyer tell you what to say in that
4 A. No.
5 Q. Remember, you said under oath, “Did anyone
6 tell you what you should testify about here today or
7 how you should say things,” and your answer was,
8 “Only our lawyer”.
9 A. What.
10 Q. Do you remember saying that in the J.C.
11 Penney deposition.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just
14 show that to you.
15 A. Uhh, sure, I guess.
16 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
19 review that page of your deposition in the J.C.
20 Penney case.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Remember testifying that a lawyer had told
23 you what to say.
24 A. They didn’t tell us what to say.
25 Q. Huh.
26 A. They didn’t tell us what to say.
27 Q. But that’s what you said when you had your
28 deposition taken, right. 1710
1 A. They probably — I don’t know, because, I
2 mean, I was eight years old. And I don’t really
3 remember what was going on.
4 Q. You were ten years old, right.
5 A. Maybe — ten years old probably at the
6 deposition. But, I mean, I was eight years old when
7 it happened.
8 Q. Did you and your mom talk about the facts of
9 that case before your deposition was taken.
10 A. No, I don’t think we were allowed to.
11 Q. So you never discussed it with your mom
12 before the deposition was taken.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you ever talked about the facts of this
15 case with your mother.
16 A. No. I don’t think we’re allowed to either.
17 Q. So you’ve never discussed the facts of this
18 case with your mother.
19 A. Um, no.
20 Q. Have you ever discussed the Bashir
21 documentary with your mother.
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. When.
24 A. We had talked about it with her sometimes,
25 like how I felt about what I said on there.
26 Q. And when did you last discuss the Bashir
27 documentary with your mother.
28 A. I do not remember. 1711
1 Q. Pardon me.
2 A. I don’t remember.
3 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
4 THE COURT: We’ve come to the end of the day.
5 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: We’re going to do something
7 different. Everyone remain seated, please.
8 Take the jury and the witness out.
9 I’ll see you all Monday.
10 A JUROR: Bye.
12 (The following proceedings were held in
13 open court outside the presence and hearing of the
16 THE COURT: I just didn’t want to say this in
17 front of the jury.
18 This morning I issued a warrant for Mr.
19 Jackson’s arrest and held it for an hour. The
20 warrant is recalled.
21 The Court also forfeited Mr. Jackson’s bail
22 at the request of Mr. Jackson. His bonding company
23 has agreed to resume the liability on the bond, and
24 has given the Court permission to reinstate the
25 bond. The Court therefore reinstates the bond as
26 previously — as previously filed and orders that
27 the reinstatement be filed with the Court.
28 Court’s in recess. Thank you. 1712
Here is some of the media’s coverage of the first two days of Gavin’s testimony:
Gavin’s cross examination continues in the next post: https://michaeljacksonvindication2.wordpress.com/2012/06/17/march-14th-2005-trial-analysis-gavin-arvizo-cross-examination-part-1-of-4/