March 14th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Gavin Arvizo (Cross Examination), Part 3 of 4
In this excerpt, Mesereau prepares Gavin to be questioned later on about the discrepancy between what he told sheriff’s investigators about being abused by Jackson during his last days at Neverland, and what he told Mesereau earlier about being abused during his last weeks at Neverland. Gavin claimed that he did not speak with any prosecutors over the previous weekend about when he originally claimed to have been abused by Jackson.
Also, Gavin claimed that his mother wanted to leave Neverland “during the last days”, but he wanted to stay “during the last days” because he was having “lots of fun”. That is an astonishing admission for an alleged victim of child abuse!
Finally, when asked by Mesereau if he was abused by Jackson only after his family returned to Neverland after multiple “escapes”, Gavin was forced to answer “yes” due to Judge Melville overruling Sneddon’s objection:
25 Q. Do you remember telling the Santa Barbara
26 Sheriffs that Michael Jackson first touched you
27 inappropriately during your last days at Neverland.
28 A. Yes. 1924
1 Q. Were you telling the truth.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. This was shortly before Vinnie drove your
4 family to your grandparents’, right.
5 A. Not — well, it was like a week or —
6 probably two weeks before Vinnie drove us back.
7 Q. Well, you said to the sheriffs it was during
8 the last days at Neverland, right.
9 A. Well, days equals — seven days equals a
10 week, so it could be days. So, I mean, it was more
11 like a week or two.
12 Q. We’ll get to that.
13 Did you discuss over the weekend with
14 Prosecutor Sneddon exactly when you say this
15 inappropriate touching took place.
16 A. No. Not over this — no.
17 Q. Did you have any discussion at all with the
18 prosecutors last night about when you say the
19 inappropriate touching took place.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. Now, when you claim you were
22 masturbated, were you wearing pajamas.
23 A. Yes, I was wearing Michael’s pajamas.
24 Q. Okay. Now, clearly during the last days at
25 Neverland, you and your family, from what you say,
26 wanted to leave, right.
27 A. Well, my mom always wanted to leave. I
28 wanted to stay, because I was having lots of fun, 1925
1 but my mom was always really worried.
2 Q. Well, at some point you say you escaped from
3 Neverland, right.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You’ve told the jury you escaped a couple of
6 times before the final escape, which was when you
7 left for good —
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. — right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So what you are telling this jury is that
12 after a couple of escapes, and following your return
13 from those escapes, you claim you were
14 inappropriately touched. That’s what you’re saying,
16 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 You may answer. Do you want the question
20 read back.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 (Record read.)
23 THE WITNESS: Yes.
Next, Gavin claimed that he slept in Jackson’s bed “every night” that Jackson was there after they returned from Miami, and he never told his mother about it because, according to him, she always stayed in her guest unit and she assumed that they were sleeping in their guest units. Gavin also denied getting caught drinking in the wine cellar by Neverland employees, but later on in this trial it will be proven that they were caught drinking:
24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, you told the sheriffs
25 that after Miami, you slept in Michael Jackson’s
26 room every night, right.
27 A. I slept in his room every night that Michael
28 was there. 1926
1 Q. And this would include visits when your
2 mother was staying at Neverland, correct.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are you telling the jury that you never
5 discussed your staying in Michael’s room with your
7 A. Not really, because my mom was always in her
8 unit. She was never outside or with us really. I
9 mean, so we would just go into Michael’s room.
10 Q. Are you telling the jury that your mother
11 never asked you, during any of those visits, “Where
12 are you spending the night.”
13 A. Not really, because I think she thought we
14 were sleeping in our unit. I mean, because she was
15 always in her unit.
16 Q. Are you telling the jury your mother never
17 left her unit at any time after the Miami trip.
18 A. She probably left a few times, but, I mean,
19 mainly she was always in her unit.
20 Q. And how many nights do you think you spent
21 in Michael Jackson’s room after the Miami trip.
22 A. I’m not sure because, I mean, every time
23 that Michael was there, me and my brother would be
24 in his room.
25 Q. And you never had one discussion with your
26 mom at any time after Miami about where you were
27 staying at night.
28 A. I might have. I don’t think I did. I’m 1927
1 pretty sure that I didn’t, because she was never
2 really involved in what we were doing at Neverland.
3 Q. And you’ve told the jury that you and your
4 brother were drinking every single night, right.
5 A. Every night that Michael was there.
6 Q. You were drinking alcohol every single night
7 that Michael was there; is that what you’re saying.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. How about the nights that Michael
10 wasn’t there.
11 A. We wouldn’t drink. I mean —
12 Q. Well, you and your brother were caught by
13 employees at Neverland drinking when Michael wasn’t
14 there, weren’t you.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Never happened.
17 A. No.
18 Q. No one ever walked in the wine cellar at
19 Neverland and caught you and your brother drinking
20 when Michael wasn’t there.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you know where the key was to the wine
24 A. No.
25 Q. To your knowledge, did your brother know
26 where the key was to the wine cellar.
27 A. I don’t think he ever knew. He was always
28 with me everywhere we went. 1928
1 Q. Did you ever learn where the key was to the
2 wine cellar.
3 A. No.
4 Q. To this day, you don’t know.
5 A. To this day, I don’t know.
6 Q. Never discussed it with your brother.
7 A. No.
Here’s an interesting piece of information that many of you may not know about: in addition to considering Gavin, Jackson also considered including David Rothenberg in the Bashir documentary. David was badly burned over most of his body in 1983 after his father doused him with gasoline and lit him on fire. Jackson reached out to him and paid for his medical bills, and they became friends and kept in touch for the rest of their lives:
23 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned on your first day
24 of testimony that when you showed up for the Bashir
25 filming, there was some discussion about a burn
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Tell the jury what that was about. 1934
1 A. Well, there was a boy there that had gotten
2 burned really bad, and then Michael said that he
3 helped him or something. And then that he was going
4 to — that he was going to film him, too. So —
5 Q. Were you supposed to be in the same film.
6 A. Yeah. Yes.
7 Q. And did you have a discussion with Michael
8 about that subject.
9 A. About me being in there.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Did you ever meet this person who was
14 A. Yeah, I think Michael introduced me to him.
15 Q. And when was this.
16 A. Around the same time as the Martin Bashir
18 Q. Was it at Neverland.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you talk to this person.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember the person’s name.
23 A. I think his name might have been David.
24 Q. Was it Rothenberg.
25 A. I don’t know.
26 Q. Was this a young man that you learned’s
27 father had poured gasoline on him and set him on
28 fire. 1935
1 A. I don’t know.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. I think that’s what happened.
4 Q. And he was supposed to be in the film with
5 you, right.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And correct me if I’m wrong, you
8 discussed with Michael the fact that Michael had
9 helped this young boy, right.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. Did you talk to this young boy about
12 what he had experienced.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. Did you ever see him.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And please describe for the jury what he
17 looked like.
18 A. He looked like he was really badly burned
19 and he had like — he was like a rocker. He was
20 wearing, like, rocker stuff. And he was burned.
21 And he had like only a few hairs on his head because
22 I guess it covered all the pores when he was burned.
23 Q. Did you and he appear in the film, if you
25 A. Later I watched it, and then — well, I
26 watched my part, and then I don’t think he was in
28 Q. Okay. But was he at Neverland the day you 1936
1 were filmed.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Did you meet him shortly after you
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Did you and he walk around Neverland.
7 A. No. I don’t think so.
8 Q. How much time did you spend with him.
9 A. Michael introduced me to him and he was
10 older than me, so I mean — I was pretty young. I
11 mean — I don’t know. We just didn’t really have
12 that much in common that much.
13 Q. Okay. Were you ever personally threatened
14 by anyone associated with Mr. Jackson.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay.
17 THE COURT: Let’s take our morning break.
18 (Recess taken.)
After the court’s recess ended, Mesereau went on the attack and questioned Gavin’s consistency in his numerous interviews with police. Gavin initially claimed that he and Jackson “didn’t drink a lot”, but in subsequent interviews he stated that he and Jackson “drank every night”. Gavin claimed that “a lot” could mean “every night”, or something like that. He couldn’t remember saying what he said, even after he was shown the transcripts of his police interviews. Gavin also denied calling his mother from Jackson’s bedroom to tell her that he was drinking, but earlier in his testimony he said that he told her they were drinking right before his urine test:
19 THE COURT: All right. You may proceed.
20 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
21 Q. Mr. Arvizo, do you recall being interviewed
22 by the Santa Barbara Sheriffs about drinking in the
24 THE COURT: They can’t hear you in the back
25 of the room.
26 THE BAILIFF: Do you still have your
27 microphone on.
28 MR. MESEREAU: It’s on. 1937
1 Q. Mr. Arvizo, do you recall discussing with
2 the Santa Barbara Sheriffs your claim that you were
3 drinking in the arcade with Michael Jackson.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you recall telling them the following:
6 “We didn’t drink a lot”.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
9 you a transcript from that interview.
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Yes.
13 MR. SNEDDON: I’m sorry, Counsel, what page
14 was that.
15 MR. MESEREAU: 26.
16 Q. Mr. Arvizo, have you had a chance to look at
17 that page.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what
20 you told the Santa Barbara Sheriffs.
21 A. Not really.
22 Q. You told them, “We didn’t drink a lot,”
24 A. I don’t know. It says it on there.
25 Q. Do you recall saying that.
26 A. No.
27 Q. Pardon me.
28 A. No. 1938
1 Q. Do you deny saying that.
2 A. I don’t know if I ever said that.
3 Q. Would you agree that every time you were
4 interviewed, your stories of drinking got worse and
5 worse, correct.
6 A. No.
7 Q. You initially told them you didn’t drink a
9 A. That’s true.
10 Q. Then you started telling them you drank a
11 lot, and then you started telling them, “We drank
12 every night,” correct.
13 A. Well, “a lot” would be every night, so it
14 would really —
15 Q. Pardon me.
16 A. “A lot” would be every night.
17 Q. And you’re saying after Miami that you
18 basically were drinking every single evening at
19 Neverland, correct.
20 A. No, I told him that every single evening
21 that Michael was there. In those transcripts,
22 probably when — I still — I don’t know.
23 Q. Isn’t it true that every time you were
24 interviewed, your stories of drinking got bigger and
25 bigger and bigger.
26 A. No.
27 Q. Are you saying your stories to the sheriffs
28 were always consistent when it came to drinking. 1939
1 A. I’m pretty sure they are. I mean, it
2 doesn’t really matter whether I said that or not.
3 I’m saying the fact is that we drank every night
4 that Michael was there.
5 Q. Did you ever discuss your drinking with your
6 mother when she was at Neverland.
7 A. I think I called her up at night — yeah, I
8 called her up at night once.
9 Q. You called her up.
10 A. Called her on Michael’s phone.
11 Q. You called her from Michael’s room to say
12 you were drinking.
13 A. No.
14 Q. During the nights after Miami, when your
15 mother was staying at Neverland, are you saying you
16 never discussed your drinking with her.
17 A. No. I — there was one — I’m talking about
18 the one night that I told Michael that — I told
19 Michael about the test that I had to take, and I
20 called my mom up. That’s what I was talking about.
21 Q. Okay. So not only did you never have a
22 discussion with your mother about where you were
23 staying at night, but you never had a discussion
24 with her about drinking alcohol; is that correct.
25 A. Yes.
26 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
28 THE COURT: Sustained. 1940
Here is what Gavin claimed under direct examination about drinking the night before the urine test:
24 Q. At some point, did you tell somebody else
25 that you’d been drinking alcohol in connection with
26 the fact that you had to collect your pee in that
28 A. Yes. 1661
1 Q. Who was that.
2 A. It was my mom.
3 Q. And do you remember where you were when you
4 told your mom.
5 A. I was in Michael’s room, and that phone with
6 all the lines, I called my mom up.
7 Q. Do you know where Mr. Jackson was at the
8 time you made the call.
9 A. He was upstairs on the bed.
10 Q. And when you made the call to your mother,
11 do you remember about what time it was.
12 A. Like four o’clock in the morning.
13 Q. And when was it you were supposed to go to
14 the doctor.
15 A. Well, I was going to start the test that
16 morning. And so the day after that, I guess.
17 Q. How long — did you tell your mother.
18 A. Well —
19 Q. Let me go back. What did you say to your
21 A. Well, I called her, and I told her, “Well,
22 mom, you know how Jesus drank juice” — I mean,
23 “Jesus drank wine.” And then she told me — I don’t
24 know. I don’t remember what exactly she said. She
25 was like, “Yeah.”
26 And then, like, I just tried to tell her,
27 and then I’m not really too sure what happened in
28 that conversation. I know I called my mom and I 1662
1 told her, and then —
2 Q. Do you remember, after you called your mom,
3 anybody coming to the doors and banging on the
5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection, leading.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
Next, Mesereau questioned Gavin about the fact that during his family’s stay at the Calabasas Inn, and their three “escapes” from Neverland, not once did anyone attempt to notify authorities that they were being held against their will. Gavin confirmed that nobody called police, but didn’t attempt to explain why.
1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you were at the
2 Calabasas Inn, was there a phone in your room.
3 A. I’m pretty sure there was.
4 Q. Did you ever see anybody call the police.
5 A. No.
6 Q. When you were shopping near the Calabasas
7 Inn, to your knowledge, did anyone ever scream
9 A. No, I don’t think so.
10 Q. Ever see your mother do it.
11 A. No.
12 Q. Ever see Star do it.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Ever see your sister do it.
15 A. No.
16 Q. You didn’t do it either, correct.
17 A. No.
18 Q. After you escaped from Neverland the first
19 time, where did you go.
20 A. I think we went to my grandmother’s house.
21 Q. To your knowledge, did anybody call the
22 police and say, “We’ve been” —
23 A. No, because the thing was, like I —
24 Q. Let me just finish my question.
25 A. Okay.
26 Q. After you say you escaped from Neverland the
27 first time, you went to your grandparents’, correct.
28 A. Yes. 1941
1 Q. And how did you get there.
2 A. Jesus Salas drove us there.
3 Q. Do you recall anyone ever calling the police
4 and saying, “We’ve just been held against our will”.
5 A. No. Because like I — my mom was —
6 Q. Let me just ask you the questions. Okay.
7 Nobody did, right.
8 A. No.
9 Q. A few days later, you went back to
10 Neverland, right.
11 A. I believe — yes.
12 Q. And then you say you escaped a second time,
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And when you escaped the second time, how
16 did you get out of Neverland.
17 A. I don’t know.
18 Q. Someone drove you somewhere, right.
19 A. Yeah, probably.
20 Q. Did you go to your grandparents’ again.
21 A. Probably.
22 Q. Nobody called the police from your
23 grandparents’ when you say you escaped the second
24 time, right.
25 A. No.
26 Q. And then you claim you returned, right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And you say you finally escaped for good, 1942
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And when you got back after finally escaping
4 for good to your grandparents’, nobody called the
5 police, correct.
6 A. No.
Mesereau then began to challenge the logic in Gavin’s assertion that he was abused by Jackson only after he had been cleared by the DCFS and the Santa Barbara’s Sheriff’s Office, and after the filming of the rebuttal video. Gavin clung to his story, and admitted that he didn’t tell his mother, step-father, or siblings that he had been abused by Jackson.
As Gavin tried to explain why he continued to sleep in Jackson’s room after the abuse began, he shot himself in the foot by stating that it was because Jackson “left after the second time”, and that was why he was “pretty sure that it happened two weeks before he left Neverland for the last time”. Mesereau pounced on this information again, as Gavin had previously told investigators that the abuse happened a few days before he left. Sneddon objected to this line of questioning multiple times, and they were all sustained by Judge Melville, who went on to admonish Mesereau against arguing his case in lieu of asking questions.
7 Q. Now, when you say Mr. Jackson masturbated
8 you, you’ve indicated that was sometime between
9 Jesus Salas driving your family to your
10 grandparents’ and your final trip out of Neverland,
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And that’s at a time when you say
14 your mother was being threatened, correct.
15 A. My mother said that she felt — that she was
16 being threatened, she felt. And Frank also told me
17 once that — because he was angry about my mom
18 always wanting to leave and stuff.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And —
21 Q. But basically what you’re saying is that the
22 inappropriate touching by Michael Jackson happened
23 after you’d escaped a few times, correct.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. After you’d gone back a few times after your
26 escapes, right.
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And after you claim you knew your mother was 1943
1 being threatened by Frank, correct.
2 A. Frank was angry at my mom once and he told
3 me, “Hey, Gavin, you know I could have your mother
5 Q. Okay. And you believed him, correct.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you believe Frank.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. And you knew about the Brazil
10 planning at this point, correct.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Because you’d been to an agency, a federal
13 office to get a visa, right.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you remember driving down to that federal
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember going into the federal
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And while you were in that federal office,
22 nobody screamed for help, right.
23 A. No.
24 Q. And this was after you had the interview
25 with the three social workers at Jay Jackson’s home,
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And during the interview with the social 1944
1 workers at Jay Jackson’s home, nobody screamed for
2 help; true.
3 A. No.
4 Q. And that was after you went to Hamid’s home
5 for the rebuttal video, right.
6 A. I think it was. I don’t know.
7 Q. Right.
8 A. I think it was.
9 Q. And what you’re saying is that after your
10 interview with the social workers, where you were
11 asked questions about Michael Jackson, you’re saying
12 it was after that that inappropriate touching began,
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. While Mr. Jackson is being investigated by
16 Los Angeles County, true.
17 A. It — it didn’t happen until the last few
18 weeks before I left. Or two weeks, somewhere around
20 Q. Let me ask the question again.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. The three social workers were from Los
23 Angeles County, true.
24 A. I think they were.
25 Q. And they were asking you questions about
26 whether Mr. Jackson had ever inappropriately touched
27 you, correct.
28 A. Yes. 1945
1 Q. And you said “No,” right.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You knew they were investigating Mr.
4 Jackson, right.
5 A. No, I thought they were just going to try to
6 ask me, and that was it. I didn’t know —
7 Q. But what you’re telling the jury is that
8 after this investigation starts and after you and
9 your family are questioned, Mr. Jackson supposedly
10 starts touching you inappropriately, right.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated to the jury last
13 week that the first time Mr. Jackson inappropriately
14 touched you, you weren’t looking at him, right.
15 A. Well, it’s like I would turn over to him
16 sometimes. I glanced over at him a couple times.
17 Q. You said you weren’t really looking at him,
19 A. Not really.
20 Q. Okay. You said you weren’t looking at him,
21 but you could somehow feel him moving, correct.
22 A. I could feel his leg like moving up
23 against —
24 Q. Okay. After that, did you complain to your
25 mother that you had been inappropriately touched.
26 A. No. I never discussed it with my mom. I
27 never discussed it with my mom at all.
28 Q. Did you complain to Star that you had been 1946
1 inappropriately touched.
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you complain to your sister that you had
4 been inappropriately touched.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you complain to Jay Jackson that you had
7 been inappropriately touched.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were you upset when you say you were
10 inappropriately touched.
11 A. If I was upset.
12 Q. Yes. Were you upset.
13 A. Yeah. Because, I mean, something happened
14 to where, like, it’s not like I can go back and
15 change it; you know what I mean. It’s like
16 something that I have, like, no control of.
17 Q. Well, at this point, in your mind, your
18 mother’s been threatened and you’ve been
19 inappropriately touched, correct.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you remained at Neverland, true.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you claim you continued to stay in his
24 bedroom, right.
25 A. Well, I think he left after the second time.
26 Q. You think Michael Jackson left after the
27 second time.
28 A. Yeah, a few days after the second time. 1947
1 That’s why I’m pretty sure that it happened a few —
2 two weeks before, because I know I’m pretty sure
3 that Michael left like a day after the second time.
4 Q. Well, but you told the jury last week it was
5 a couple of days before you left for good. Do you
6 remember that.
7 A. No. You kept on saying that.
8 Q. Pardon me.
9 A. No. You kept on saying that.
10 Q. Well, let’s look at this.
11 You said that maybe a few days before you
12 left Neverland for good you were inappropriately
13 touched, right.
14 MR. SNEDDON: Judge, I’m going to object as
15 asked and answered. He was asked this morning.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember saying
18 last week, Mr. Arvizo, when I asked you when it
19 happened, you said, “No, it was more toward the end,
20 toward when we were already about to leave, after we
21 had been drinking alcohol and all that stuff. It
22 wasn’t directly after the DCSF. It was more toward
23 the end of the” — a few days before you left
24 Neverland, right.
25 MR. SNEDDON: Same objection, Your Honor.
26 Asked and answered.
27 THE COURT: Sustained.
28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You then changed it later 1948
1 on in that examination to say, “It was a week before
2 we left,” right.
3 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
4 object to counsel. He’s just trying to read this in
5 after the objection.
6 THE COURT: Sustained.
7 Counsel, you’re — be quiet. You’re arguing
8 your case. Stop it. Start asking questions.
9 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.
Just a few moments earlier, Gavin stated that he never slept in Jackson’s bedroom when he wasn’t there, but now he’s saying that he stayed there after the abuse started because Jackson wasn’t there!
18 Q. How many times do you think you entered
19 Michael Jackson’s bedroom when Mr. Jackson wasn’t
21 A. I never went inside his room when he wasn’t
In this excerpt, Mesereau catches Gavin in yet another lie when he questions why Gavin told Dr. Katz that he thought a “crazy” fan of Jackson would kill him, but he told police investigators throughout numerous interviews that Frank Cascio was the only person that threatened to have his family killed. Gavin sarcastically stated that just because Dr. Katz wasn’t mentioned in the police transcripts, it doesn’t mean that he wasn’t talked about! Yeah, whatever.
27 Q. Do you remember telling Psychologist Stanley
28 Katz you thought a crazy fan of Michael Jackson will 1950
1 kill you.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You never told that to the sheriffs,
5 A. I’m pretty sure I discussed it with them.
6 Q. Well, it never appears in your interviews,
8 A. Yeah, I guess it didn’t. But, I mean, it
9 doesn’t mean I didn’t tell them that.
10 Q. The only time that you used the word “kill”
11 was when you told the sheriffs that Frank had
12 threatened to kill your mom, right.
13 A. Uh-huh. In an interview.
14 Q. When did you start thinking that a crazy fan
15 of Michael Jackson will kill you.
16 A. When Frank kept on telling us that people —
17 there was death threats on us.
18 Q. What were the death threats.
19 A. I don’t know. Frank just told us that.
20 Q. Well, when you discussed that with Stanley
21 Katz, you didn’t tell him that came from Frank. You
22 told him you personally were frightened, right.
23 A. Yeah. Be — but I mean —
24 Q. Is that right.
25 A. Yes. Frank was the one that really made me
26 realize that that could happen.
27 Q. Okay. Now, did you ever discuss with
28 Michael Jackson your fear that a fan might hurt you. 1951
1 A. I don’t know.
2 Q. Did you ever discuss with Michael Jackson
3 what Frank was telling you that you thought was
5 A. I don’t think I did.
6 Q. Okay. So based on your experiences, Michael
7 Jackson knew nothing about what Frank was saying to
8 you, correct.
9 MR. SNEDDON: Object. It calls for
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
Mesereau next questioned Gavin about whether he and his family were telling the truth during the filming of the rebuttal video, and Gavin claimed that he was lying and saying what he was told to say by Dieter Wiesner. He then downplayed the role that Jackson played in his recovery by implying that Jackson turned his back on him by changing his phone number, which is something that he claimed Chris Tucker and George Lopez never did. This is another obvious sign of the anger and resentment that Gavin had towards Jackson, and which eventually motivated Gavin to concoct these false allegations against Jackson.
12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you were at the
13 Calabasas Inn, you never spoke to Michael Jackson,
15 A. No, I don’t think so.
16 Q. The night before you did the rebuttal video,
17 you never spoke to Michael Jackson, right.
18 A. I might have. I don’t know.
19 Q. The day you did the rebuttal video, you
20 never spoke to Michael Jackson, right.
21 A. No. Michael was telling me that I’m going
22 to do a rebuttal for him.
23 THE REPORTER: What was the last part.
24 THE WITNESS: Michael was telling me before
25 we went that we were going to do the rebuttal for
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Approximately when was
28 that. 1952
1 A. Maybe right before the rebuttal.
2 Q. When you spoke on that rebuttal video, were
3 you telling the truth.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Were you lying.
6 A. Dieter had us pretty much — yeah, Dieter
7 had us lie.
8 Q. Were you lying throughout that rebuttal
10 A. There was probably a few things that were
11 true, but, I mean, a lot of it was what Dieter told
12 us to say.
13 Q. Was it your understanding that your mother
14 was lying.
15 A. She was saying what Dieter told her to say.
16 Q. Was it your understanding she was lying.
17 A. Yes, she was lying, because Dieter told her
18 to say it.
19 Q. Was it your understanding that Star was
20 lying in that rebuttal video.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And was it your understanding that your
23 sister lied on that rebuttal video.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you were lying about Mr. Jackson helping
26 you with cancer; is that correct.
27 A. No, because Michael did help me a little
28 bit, but, I mean, he — for me, what I felt as a 1953
1 little kid, I mean, besides the fact of all this
2 money and who paid for this and who paid for that,
3 who — I felt who really helped me was my other
5 Because Michael, at the time when he was
6 calling me and talking to me and stuff, I felt like
7 he was my best friend. But, I mean, when he — when
8 I would call his phone numbers and a little
9 operating lady would say, “This phone is no longer
10 in service.” I mean, I never called Chris and his
11 phone was never in service. I never called George
12 and his phone wasn’t in service.
Next, Mesereau tried to cross-examine Gavin about whether he had been caught with pornography while at Neverland, but Sneddon objected and Judge Melville sustained the objection.
13 Q. Do you recall being caught at Neverland with
14 girlie magazines when you were not around Michael
16 A. No.
17 Q. Are you saying that never happened.
18 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, 403 hearing.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 I’ll — that’s sort of a — you know what
21 he’s talking about on the 403 hearing, right.
22 MR. MESEREAU: I thought I was able to get
23 into these areas on cross.
24 THE COURT: Yes. That’s why I’m looking at
25 you, because I don’t want to discuss it. I just
26 want to make sure we understand each other.
27 MR. MESEREAU: Yeah, I won’t go further than
28 that on this one. 1954
1 There’s another area, too, I think the Court
2 gave me permission.
3 THE COURT: That’s correct.
Next, Mesereau asked Gavin if he had been caught masturbating at Neverland, and he denied it (which is a complete contradiction to what Jackson’s younger cousin Rijo stated in an interview with Mesereau’s investigator, and when he testified for the defense later on in the trial.) Mesereau then pivoted and asked why is it Gavin felt the need to write numerous letters to Jackson after he did the rebuttal video, which would be strange considering that Gavin claimed that all of the positive things that he and his family said about Jackson were scripted, and that Jackson began abusing him after shooting the video (he initially claimed that Jackson abused him before the rebuttal video was shot, but his story evolved over time.)
Essentially, what Mesereau was trying to establish to the jury is why would Gavin want to write Jackson letters after the rebuttal video was shot, in which he referred to Jackson as “father” and “daddy”, and thanked Jackson for all he had done during his cancer treatments, if the abuse started to occur after the shooting of the rebuttal video? Unfortunately, Judge Melville sustained Sneddon’s objection.
4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, you were
5 caught masturbating at Neverland when Michael
6 Jackson wasn’t even around, weren’t you.
7 A. No.
8 Q. You were caught masturbating in a guest
9 quarters, weren’t you.
10 A. No.
11 Q. No one ever saw you do that.
12 A. No.
13 Q. No one ever talked to you about that.
14 A. No one ever talked to me about it.
15 Q. Okay. Long after you did the rebuttal
16 video, you had written numerous letters and cards to
17 Michael Jackson thanking him for what he did for
18 your cancer, true.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Long before you did the rebuttal video, you
21 had written numerous cards and letters to Michael
22 Jackson referring to him as your father, true.
23 A. Yes. Because I missed him. I mean, I
24 wanted to know what happened, why he wasn’t calling
25 anymore. And that’s the only real way I had
26 connection with him was through mail, because I had
27 Evvy’s — I knew where Evvy was, so I could send it
28 to her. 1955
1 Q. And long before you did the rebuttal video,
2 you sent cards and letters to Michael Jackson
3 referring to yourself as his son, true.
4 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
5 object. This has all been asked and answered.
6 MR. MESEREAU: I don’t think it has.
7 THE COURT: Well, there wasn’t a time frame.
8 You have covered the cards and letters. Is there a
9 specific time frame you’re concerned about.
10 MR. MESEREAU: Any time before the rebuttal
11 video, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: I think you’ve covered that. The
13 objection is sustained.
Mesereau then played the rebuttal video for Gavin, stopping at certain points to ask him questions about what was said and why it was said:
14 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Okay.
15 Q. We’re going to go through the rebuttal
16 video. And I’m just going to ask you some questions
17 about what you said and how you said it. Okay.
18 A. Okay.
19 MR. MESEREAU: All right. Your Honor, at
20 this time we’d like to play the rebuttal video.
21 THE COURT: What is that. “Input 4”.
22 MR. SANGER: Yes. Your Honor, for the
23 record, it’s Exhibit 340.
24 THE COURT: Exhibit 340.
26 I’d like one of those whistles just before I
27 make a ruling.
28 MR. SANGER: Tell me to queue it up, Your 1956
2 Just for the record, I turned the sound off
3 on this so we wouldn’t….
4 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
5 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
Mesereau played the DVD and asked Gavin to confirm if statements that his mother had said about her relationship with Jackson were true (Gavin confirmed that they were), if Gavin’s statements about whether he asked his parents to sleep in Jackson’s room (Gavin confirmed he was lying), Janet’s statement about Jackson being the only person who could cure Gavin (he claimed she was lying, and that his chemotherapy and radiation treatments cured him), Davellin’s statements about the family always being turned away by people (Gavin said she was lying because George Lopez, Louise Palanker, and others helped them out a lot),
7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, you heard what your
8 mother just said, right.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And is it your belief your mother is lying.
11 A. Um, right there, not really, because I had a
12 pretty good relationship with him, you know, right
13 at the beginning.
14 Q. So you don’t think your mother is lying when
15 she makes that statement, correct.
16 A. Well, not really, because, I mean, he was
17 like really close to me in the beginning. I mean, I
18 guess, I thought I was close to him; you know what I
20 Q. Okay.
21 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
22 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, when you made
25 those statements, were you lying.
26 A. Statements about the first night.
27 Q. What you just said, yes.
28 A. The sleeping arrangements. 1957
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. No, I wasn’t lying about that.
3 Q. Have you told any lies so far in this
4 rebuttal tape.
5 A. I don’t — I remember I said something
6 that — oh, yeah, because Michael told me in the
7 office, in his office, to ask my parents if I could
8 sleep in his room. So it wasn’t — he told me to
9 ask in front of my parents.
10 Q. So are you saying this is a lie you just
12 A. I’m just saying that — about how I asked my
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. That’s a lie.
16 Q. That’s a lie.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Is that the first lie you’ve told in
19 this rebuttal tape, as far as you can see.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay.
3 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
4 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, you’ve heard
7 what your mother just said. Was it your belief that
8 she was lying.
9 A. There’s a part in there, like, that there
10 was no way to cure me. Dieter told us to say that.
11 Q. Okay. So that was not true.
12 A. Yeah, because they did do radiation and
14 Q. The truth was, you had needed radiation and
15 chemo to cure you, and what your mother said was a
16 lie, correct.
17 A. About there was no way to cure me, that
18 Michael was the only person that could cure me.
14 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s
15 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and
17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Gavin, is your sister
18 telling the truth when she makes that statement.
19 A. Not really, because she was saying that —
20 well, she was saying that people were always turning
21 us away. And that’s not true, because, I mean,
22 Jamie Masada was helping us, Louise Palanker was
23 helping us, George Lopez was helping us. I’m pretty
24 sure — I’m not too sure, but I’m pretty sure Dieter
25 told her to say that also, that no one else was
26 helping us but Michael.
27 Q. And Chris Tucker was helping you, correct.
28 A. Yes, Chris Tucker was helping us, yes. 1960
Pay attention here, because this is arguably the most damaging piece of testimony to Gavin’s credibility! Mesereau questioned Gavin about why he initially told police that he was abused by Jackson BEFORE the filming of the rebuttal video on February 20th, 2003, but later changed his story to claim that he was abused AFTER it was filmed! When Gavin was shown the transcript of his police interviews, he claimed that it refreshed his recollection, but that “even to this day” he doesn’t “remember” exactly how everything happened. He then stuck by his current assertions that he was abused after the rebuttal video was filmed, despite his earlier statements.
Mesereau then cornered Gavin by asking him to confirm if he told Sneddon he had been abused at different times by Jackson during separate interviews, and although Sneddon objected to this question, Judge Melville overruled it, and Gavin was forced to answer. Gavin claimed that he spoke to Sneddon several times off the record (and without his conversations being recorded), and Sneddon would act “really nice” to him and “help him” and “make him feel better”. This explains why Gavin felt comfortable enough to refer to Sneddon and the other prosecutors by their first name throughout the trial!
1 Q. Okay. And this is the rebuttal video that
2 you did before the meeting with the three social
3 workers, correct.
4 A. I don’t know. I’m pretty sure I did it
5 before the social workers.
6 Q. You went the next morning to interview with
7 the social workers, didn’t you.
8 A. I think I did.
9 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a question: You said
10 repeatedly in this trial that Mr. Jackson did not
11 inappropriately touch you until after this video was
12 done, correct.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And repeatedly in this video, you make
15 statements about what a wonderful person Mr. Jackson
16 is, right.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember telling Mr. Sneddon and the
19 sheriffs on one occasion that you were molested
20 before the video was done.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show
23 you a transcript of that interview.
24 A. Yes. Please.
25 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.
26 THE COURT: Yes.
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
28 look at that transcript. 1961
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that
3 Mr. Sneddon was interviewing you about when these
4 acts of molestation allegedly occurred.
5 A. Yes. But the thing was, I don’t — even to
6 this day, I don’t remember exactly when everything
7 happened exactly, so I mean —
8 Q. Well, do you remember being asked, “The acts
9 of molestation, had they already begun by the time
10 you did this video, do you know.” And you said, “I
11 think so.”
12 And then Mr. Sneddon said to you, “So, in
13 your mind, one of the things that you’re thinking
14 is, they’re doing this video that they want you guys
15 to do so that if you ever told them the truth about
16 being molested, nobody would believe you,” and you
17 say, “Yeah,” right.
18 A. Well, I —
19 Q. Do you remember saying that to Mr. Sneddon.
20 A. That’s more of my opinion – you know what I
21 mean. – right there. That last statement you just
22 said on that transcript, it’s more of my opinion
23 than a state of fact.
24 Q. Well, Mr. Sneddon asked you last week when
25 this inappropriate touching supposedly occurred, and
26 you said it was after the rebuttal video was made,
28 A. Yes. 1962
1 Q. But in an interview with Mr. Sneddon before
2 this trial ever began, you told him differently,
4 A. That’s what it says right there. But it
5 happened after.
6 Q. Did someone ever say to you, “You have to
7 say it happened after, because on the rebuttal video
8 you deny he’s ever done anything wrong”.
9 A. No. No one’s ever told me that.
10 Q. Then why does your story change.
11 A. I don’t know. It happened after. I mean —
12 Q. Well, at some point did you go to Mr.
13 Sneddon and say, “I’m changing my story about when
14 this inappropriate touching happened”.
15 A. No.
16 Q. At some point did you go to the sheriffs and
17 say, “I’m changing my story about when this
18 inappropriate touching happened”.
19 A. No.
20 Q. You just suddenly got on the stand and
21 changed it.
22 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
24 THE COURT: Sustained.
25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you ever had any
26 discussion at any time with Mr. Sneddon where you
27 used words to the effect, “I’m changing my story
28 about the time this molestation happened”. 1963
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. When Mr. Sneddon asked you questions
3 last week about when this molestation supposedly
4 occurred, was that the first time you said to Mr.
5 Sneddon it happened after the rebuttal video.
6 A. I don’t think so.
7 Q. You don’t think so.
8 A. I don’t think that was the first time I ever
9 told him that it happened after the rebuttal video.
10 Q. So are you saying that at different times
11 you gave Mr. Sneddon different accounts of when the
12 molestation supposedly happened.
13 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to
14 object to that question. Assumes facts not in
15 evidence, and it’s argumentative and speculative.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 Do you want the question read back.
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 (Record read.)
20 THE WITNESS: Sometimes I would talk to
21 Mr. Sneddon without having like an interview — or,
22 like, have a recorder or something. And I would
23 talk — like, Mr. Sneddon was being really nice to
24 me. Like he was helping me, and he was making me
25 feel better about what happened and stuff. So he’s
26 been really nice to me.
Next, Mesereau caught Gavin in yet another lie by asking him to explain why he said that his brother Star stayed with him in Jackson’s room every night until the last few days they were at Neverland, yet he initially told the grand jury that Star didn’t stay in Jackson’s room the last few times. Gavin just stumbled and stuttered throughout his answer, and tripped himself up again by confusing the timeline of his alleged abuse between “the last few days” and “the last week or two”:
27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember telling
28 the Santa Barbara Grand Jury that after the Miami 1964
1 trip, your brother stayed in Michael’s room with you
2 every night until the last few days.
3 A. Yeah, he stood in my room — he stood in the
4 room with me and Michael pretty much every day.
5 Some days he wouldn’t stay there.
6 Q. Do you remember telling the grand jury that
7 until the last few days, your brother Star stayed
8 with you in Michael’s room all the time.
9 A. He stood with us — well, he — the last —
10 the last week or two, or a few days, or something
11 like that, he didn’t. Well, because my brother
12 wasn’t there when it happened, so I’m pretty sure it
13 wasn’t — he stopped staying there the last few
15 Q. Do you remember telling the Santa Barbara
16 Grand Jury:
17 “Q. Was your brother staying in the room
18 with you during that time.
19 “A. Well, the last few times he didn’t, but
20 he was, like, when Michael was there — when
21 Michael was there —
22 “Q. Uh-huh.
23 “A. — he stood with me for all the time
24 when Michael was there. But, like, toward the
25 end, toward the last few days, he wasn’t staying
26 with me no more.”
27 Do you remember that.
28 A. Uh-huh. 1965
1 Q. And you’ve also told this jury that the two
2 times you claim Michael Jackson inappropriately
3 touched you Star wasn’t there, correct.
4 A. Yes.