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March 14th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Gavin Arvizo (Cross Examination), Part 3 of 4

June 21, 2012

In this excerpt, Mesereau prepares Gavin to be questioned later on about the discrepancy between what he told sheriff’s investigators about being abused by Jackson during his last days at Neverland, and what he told Mesereau earlier about being abused during his last weeks at Neverland. Gavin claimed that he did not speak with any prosecutors over the previous weekend about when he originally claimed to have been abused by Jackson.

Also, Gavin claimed that his mother wanted to leave Neverland “during the last days”, but he wanted to stay “during the last days” because he was having “lots of fun”. That is an astonishing admission for an alleged victim of child abuse!

Finally, when asked by Mesereau if he was abused by Jackson only after his family returned to Neverland after multiple “escapes”, Gavin was forced to answer “yes” due to Judge Melville overruling Sneddon’s objection:

25 Q. Do you remember telling the Santa Barbara

26 Sheriffs that Michael Jackson first touched you

27 inappropriately during your last days at Neverland.

28 A. Yes. 1924

1 Q. Were you telling the truth.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This was shortly before Vinnie drove your

4 family to your grandparents’, right.

5 A. Not — well, it was like a week or —

6 probably two weeks before Vinnie drove us back.

7 Q. Well, you said to the sheriffs it was during

8 the last days at Neverland, right.

9 A. Well, days equals — seven days equals a

10 week, so it could be days. So, I mean, it was more

11 like a week or two.

12 Q. We’ll get to that.

13 Did you discuss over the weekend with

14 Prosecutor Sneddon exactly when you say this

15 inappropriate touching took place.

16 A. No. Not over this — no.

17 Q. Did you have any discussion at all with the

18 prosecutors last night about when you say the

19 inappropriate touching took place.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. Now, when you claim you were

22 masturbated, were you wearing pajamas.

23 A. Yes, I was wearing Michael’s pajamas.

24 Q. Okay. Now, clearly during the last days at

25 Neverland, you and your family, from what you say,

26 wanted to leave, right.

27 A. Well, my mom always wanted to leave. I

28 wanted to stay, because I was having lots of fun, 1925

1 but my mom was always really worried.

2 Q. Well, at some point you say you escaped from

3 Neverland, right.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You’ve told the jury you escaped a couple of

6 times before the final escape, which was when you

7 left for good —

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. — right.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So what you are telling this jury is that

12 after a couple of escapes, and following your return

13 from those escapes, you claim you were

14 inappropriately touched. That’s what you’re saying,

15 right.

16 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your

17 Honor.

18 THE COURT: Overruled.

19 You may answer. Do you want the question

20 read back.


22 (Record read.)


Next, Gavin claimed that he slept in Jackson’s bed “every night” that Jackson was there after they returned from Miami, and he never told his mother about it because, according to him, she always stayed in her guest unit and she assumed that they were sleeping in their guest units. Gavin also denied getting caught drinking in the wine cellar by Neverland employees, but later on in this trial it will be proven that they were caught drinking:

24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, you told the sheriffs

25 that after Miami, you slept in Michael Jackson’s

26 room every night, right.

27 A. I slept in his room every night that Michael

28 was there. 1926

1 Q. And this would include visits when your

2 mother was staying at Neverland, correct.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Are you telling the jury that you never

5 discussed your staying in Michael’s room with your

6 mother.

7 A. Not really, because my mom was always in her

8 unit. She was never outside or with us really. I

9 mean, so we would just go into Michael’s room.

10 Q. Are you telling the jury that your mother

11 never asked you, during any of those visits, “Where

12 are you spending the night.”

13 A. Not really, because I think she thought we

14 were sleeping in our unit. I mean, because she was

15 always in her unit.

16 Q. Are you telling the jury your mother never

17 left her unit at any time after the Miami trip.

18 A. She probably left a few times, but, I mean,

19 mainly she was always in her unit.

20 Q. And how many nights do you think you spent

21 in Michael Jackson’s room after the Miami trip.

22 A. I’m not sure because, I mean, every time

23 that Michael was there, me and my brother would be

24 in his room.

25 Q. And you never had one discussion with your

26 mom at any time after Miami about where you were

27 staying at night.

28 A. I might have. I don’t think I did. I’m 1927

1 pretty sure that I didn’t, because she was never

2 really involved in what we were doing at Neverland.

3 Q. And you’ve told the jury that you and your

4 brother were drinking every single night, right.

5 A. Every night that Michael was there.

6 Q. You were drinking alcohol every single night

7 that Michael was there; is that what you’re saying.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. How about the nights that Michael

10 wasn’t there.

11 A. We wouldn’t drink. I mean —

12 Q. Well, you and your brother were caught by

13 employees at Neverland drinking when Michael wasn’t

14 there, weren’t you.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Never happened.

17 A. No.

18 Q. No one ever walked in the wine cellar at

19 Neverland and caught you and your brother drinking

20 when Michael wasn’t there.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you know where the key was to the wine

23 cellar.

24 A. No.

25 Q. To your knowledge, did your brother know

26 where the key was to the wine cellar.

27 A. I don’t think he ever knew. He was always

28 with me everywhere we went. 1928

1 Q. Did you ever learn where the key was to the

2 wine cellar.

3 A. No.

4 Q. To this day, you don’t know.

5 A. To this day, I don’t know.

6 Q. Never discussed it with your brother.

7 A. No.

Here’s an interesting piece of information that many of you may not know about: in addition to considering Gavin, Jackson also considered including David Rothenberg in the Bashir documentary. David was badly burned over most of his body in 1983 after his father doused him with gasoline and lit him on fire. Jackson reached out to him and paid for his medical bills, and they became friends and kept in touch for the rest of their lives:

23 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned on your first day

24 of testimony that when you showed up for the Bashir

25 filming, there was some discussion about a burn

26 victim.

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Tell the jury what that was about. 1934

1 A. Well, there was a boy there that had gotten

2 burned really bad, and then Michael said that he

3 helped him or something. And then that he was going

4 to — that he was going to film him, too. So —

5 Q. Were you supposed to be in the same film.

6 A. Yeah. Yes.

7 Q. And did you have a discussion with Michael

8 about that subject.

9 A. About me being in there.

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Did you ever meet this person who was

13 burned.

14 A. Yeah, I think Michael introduced me to him.

15 Q. And when was this.

16 A. Around the same time as the Martin Bashir

17 thing.

18 Q. Was it at Neverland.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you talk to this person.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you remember the person’s name.

23 A. I think his name might have been David.

24 Q. Was it Rothenberg.

25 A. I don’t know.

26 Q. Was this a young man that you learned’s

27 father had poured gasoline on him and set him on

28 fire. 1935

1 A. I don’t know.

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. I think that’s what happened.

4 Q. And he was supposed to be in the film with

5 you, right.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. And correct me if I’m wrong, you

8 discussed with Michael the fact that Michael had

9 helped this young boy, right.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. Did you talk to this young boy about

12 what he had experienced.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. Did you ever see him.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And please describe for the jury what he

17 looked like.

18 A. He looked like he was really badly burned

19 and he had like — he was like a rocker. He was

20 wearing, like, rocker stuff. And he was burned.

21 And he had like only a few hairs on his head because

22 I guess it covered all the pores when he was burned.

23 Q. Did you and he appear in the film, if you

24 know.

25 A. Later I watched it, and then — well, I

26 watched my part, and then I don’t think he was in

27 there.

28 Q. Okay. But was he at Neverland the day you 1936

1 were filmed.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Did you meet him shortly after you

4 arrived.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Did you and he walk around Neverland.

7 A. No. I don’t think so.

8 Q. How much time did you spend with him.

9 A. Michael introduced me to him and he was

10 older than me, so I mean — I was pretty young. I

11 mean — I don’t know. We just didn’t really have

12 that much in common that much.

13 Q. Okay. Were you ever personally threatened

14 by anyone associated with Mr. Jackson.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay.

17 THE COURT: Let’s take our morning break.

18 (Recess taken.)


After the court’s recess ended, Mesereau went on the attack and questioned Gavin’s consistency in his numerous interviews with police. Gavin initially claimed that he and Jackson “didn’t drink a lot”, but in subsequent interviews he stated that he and Jackson “drank every night”. Gavin claimed that “a lot” could mean “every night”, or something like that. He couldn’t remember saying what he said, even after he was shown the transcripts of his police interviews. Gavin also denied calling his mother from Jackson’s bedroom to tell her that he was drinking, but earlier in his testimony he said that he told her they were drinking right before his urine test:


19 THE COURT: All right. You may proceed.

20 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.

21 Q. Mr. Arvizo, do you recall being interviewed

22 by the Santa Barbara Sheriffs about drinking in the

23 arcade.

24 THE COURT: They can’t hear you in the back

25 of the room.

26 THE BAILIFF: Do you still have your

27 microphone on.

28 MR. MESEREAU: It’s on. 1937

1 Q. Mr. Arvizo, do you recall discussing with

2 the Santa Barbara Sheriffs your claim that you were

3 drinking in the arcade with Michael Jackson.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you recall telling them the following:

6 “We didn’t drink a lot”.

7 A. No.

8 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show

9 you a transcript from that interview.

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.

12 THE COURT: Yes.

13 MR. SNEDDON: I’m sorry, Counsel, what page

14 was that.

15 MR. MESEREAU: 26.

16 Q. Mr. Arvizo, have you had a chance to look at

17 that page.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about what

20 you told the Santa Barbara Sheriffs.

21 A. Not really.

22 Q. You told them, “We didn’t drink a lot,”

23 right.

24 A. I don’t know. It says it on there.

25 Q. Do you recall saying that.

26 A. No.

27 Q. Pardon me.

28 A. No. 1938

1 Q. Do you deny saying that.

2 A. I don’t know if I ever said that.

3 Q. Would you agree that every time you were

4 interviewed, your stories of drinking got worse and

5 worse, correct.

6 A. No.

7 Q. You initially told them you didn’t drink a

8 lot.

9 A. That’s true.

10 Q. Then you started telling them you drank a

11 lot, and then you started telling them, “We drank

12 every night,” correct.

13 A. Well, “a lot” would be every night, so it

14 would really —

15 Q. Pardon me.

16 A. “A lot” would be every night.

17 Q. And you’re saying after Miami that you

18 basically were drinking every single evening at

19 Neverland, correct.

20 A. No, I told him that every single evening

21 that Michael was there. In those transcripts,

22 probably when — I still — I don’t know.

23 Q. Isn’t it true that every time you were

24 interviewed, your stories of drinking got bigger and

25 bigger and bigger.

26 A. No.

27 Q. Are you saying your stories to the sheriffs

28 were always consistent when it came to drinking. 1939

1 A. I’m pretty sure they are. I mean, it

2 doesn’t really matter whether I said that or not.

3 I’m saying the fact is that we drank every night

4 that Michael was there.

5 Q. Did you ever discuss your drinking with your

6 mother when she was at Neverland.

7 A. I think I called her up at night — yeah, I

8 called her up at night once.

9 Q. You called her up.

10 A. Called her on Michael’s phone.

11 Q. You called her from Michael’s room to say

12 you were drinking.

13 A. No.

14 Q. During the nights after Miami, when your

15 mother was staying at Neverland, are you saying you

16 never discussed your drinking with her.

17 A. No. I — there was one — I’m talking about

18 the one night that I told Michael that — I told

19 Michael about the test that I had to take, and I

20 called my mom up. That’s what I was talking about.

21 Q. Okay. So not only did you never have a

22 discussion with your mother about where you were

23 staying at night, but you never had a discussion

24 with her about drinking alcohol; is that correct.

25 A. Yes.

26 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your

27 Honor.

28 THE COURT: Sustained. 1940

Here is what Gavin claimed under direct examination about drinking the night before the urine test:

24 Q. At some point, did you tell somebody else

25 that you’d been drinking alcohol in connection with

26 the fact that you had to collect your pee in that

27 bottle.

28 A. Yes. 1661

1 Q. Who was that.

2 A. It was my mom.

3 Q. And do you remember where you were when you

4 told your mom.

5 A. I was in Michael’s room, and that phone with

6 all the lines, I called my mom up.

7 Q. Do you know where Mr. Jackson was at the

8 time you made the call.

9 A. He was upstairs on the bed.

10 Q. And when you made the call to your mother,

11 do you remember about what time it was.

12 A. Like four o’clock in the morning.

13 Q. And when was it you were supposed to go to

14 the doctor.

15 A. Well, I was going to start the test that

16 morning. And so the day after that, I guess.

17 Q. How long — did you tell your mother.

18 A. Well —

19 Q. Let me go back. What did you say to your

20 mother.

21 A. Well, I called her, and I told her, “Well,

22 mom, you know how Jesus drank juice” — I mean,

23 “Jesus drank wine.” And then she told me — I don’t

24 know. I don’t remember what exactly she said. She

25 was like, “Yeah.”

26 And then, like, I just tried to tell her,

27 and then I’m not really too sure what happened in

28 that conversation. I know I called my mom and I 1662

1 told her, and then —

2 Q. Do you remember, after you called your mom,

3 anybody coming to the doors and banging on the

4 doors.

5 MR. MESEREAU: Objection, leading.

6 THE COURT: Sustained.

Next, Mesereau questioned Gavin about the fact that during his family’s stay at the Calabasas Inn, and their three “escapes” from Neverland, not once did anyone attempt to notify authorities that they were being held against their will. Gavin confirmed that nobody called police, but didn’t attempt to explain why.


1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you were at the

2 Calabasas Inn, was there a phone in your room.

3 A. I’m pretty sure there was.

4 Q. Did you ever see anybody call the police.

5 A. No.

6 Q. When you were shopping near the Calabasas

7 Inn, to your knowledge, did anyone ever scream

8 “help”.

9 A. No, I don’t think so.

10 Q. Ever see your mother do it.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Ever see Star do it.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Ever see your sister do it.

15 A. No.

16 Q. You didn’t do it either, correct.

17 A. No.

18 Q. After you escaped from Neverland the first

19 time, where did you go.

20 A. I think we went to my grandmother’s house.

21 Q. To your knowledge, did anybody call the

22 police and say, “We’ve been” —

23 A. No, because the thing was, like I —

24 Q. Let me just finish my question.

25 A. Okay.

26 Q. After you say you escaped from Neverland the

27 first time, you went to your grandparents’, correct.

28 A. Yes. 1941

1 Q. And how did you get there.

2 A. Jesus Salas drove us there.

3 Q. Do you recall anyone ever calling the police

4 and saying, “We’ve just been held against our will”.

5 A. No. Because like I — my mom was —

6 Q. Let me just ask you the questions. Okay.

7 Nobody did, right.

8 A. No.

9 Q. A few days later, you went back to

10 Neverland, right.

11 A. I believe — yes.

12 Q. And then you say you escaped a second time,

13 correct.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And when you escaped the second time, how

16 did you get out of Neverland.

17 A. I don’t know.

18 Q. Someone drove you somewhere, right.

19 A. Yeah, probably.

20 Q. Did you go to your grandparents’ again.

21 A. Probably.

22 Q. Nobody called the police from your

23 grandparents’ when you say you escaped the second

24 time, right.

25 A. No.

26 Q. And then you claim you returned, right.

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. And you say you finally escaped for good, 1942

1 right.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And when you got back after finally escaping

4 for good to your grandparents’, nobody called the

5 police, correct.

6 A. No.

Mesereau then began to challenge the logic in Gavin’s assertion that he was abused by Jackson only after he had been cleared by the DCFS and the Santa Barbara’s Sheriff’s Office, and after the filming of the rebuttal video. Gavin clung to his story, and admitted that he didn’t tell his mother, step-father, or siblings that he had been abused by Jackson.

As Gavin tried to explain why he continued to sleep in Jackson’s room after the abuse began, he shot himself in the foot by stating that it was because Jackson “left after the second time”, and that was why he was “pretty sure that it happened two weeks before he left Neverland for the last time”. Mesereau pounced on this information again, as Gavin had previously told investigators that the abuse happened a few days before he left. Sneddon objected to this line of questioning multiple times, and they were all sustained by Judge Melville, who went on to admonish Mesereau against arguing his case in lieu of asking questions.

7 Q. Now, when you say Mr. Jackson masturbated

8 you, you’ve indicated that was sometime between

9 Jesus Salas driving your family to your

10 grandparents’ and your final trip out of Neverland,

11 correct.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. And that’s at a time when you say

14 your mother was being threatened, correct.

15 A. My mother said that she felt — that she was

16 being threatened, she felt. And Frank also told me

17 once that — because he was angry about my mom

18 always wanting to leave and stuff.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. And —

21 Q. But basically what you’re saying is that the

22 inappropriate touching by Michael Jackson happened

23 after you’d escaped a few times, correct.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. After you’d gone back a few times after your

26 escapes, right.

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. And after you claim you knew your mother was 1943

1 being threatened by Frank, correct.

2 A. Frank was angry at my mom once and he told

3 me, “Hey, Gavin, you know I could have your mother

4 killed.”

5 Q. Okay. And you believed him, correct.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you believe Frank.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. And you knew about the Brazil

10 planning at this point, correct.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Because you’d been to an agency, a federal

13 office to get a visa, right.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you remember driving down to that federal

16 office.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember going into the federal

19 office.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And while you were in that federal office,

22 nobody screamed for help, right.

23 A. No.

24 Q. And this was after you had the interview

25 with the three social workers at Jay Jackson’s home,

26 right.

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. And during the interview with the social 1944

1 workers at Jay Jackson’s home, nobody screamed for

2 help; true.

3 A. No.

4 Q. And that was after you went to Hamid’s home

5 for the rebuttal video, right.

6 A. I think it was. I don’t know.

7 Q. Right.

8 A. I think it was.

9 Q. And what you’re saying is that after your

10 interview with the social workers, where you were

11 asked questions about Michael Jackson, you’re saying

12 it was after that that inappropriate touching began,

13 correct.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. While Mr. Jackson is being investigated by

16 Los Angeles County, true.

17 A. It — it didn’t happen until the last few

18 weeks before I left. Or two weeks, somewhere around

19 there.

20 Q. Let me ask the question again.

21 A. Okay.

22 Q. The three social workers were from Los

23 Angeles County, true.

24 A. I think they were.

25 Q. And they were asking you questions about

26 whether Mr. Jackson had ever inappropriately touched

27 you, correct.

28 A. Yes. 1945

1 Q. And you said “No,” right.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You knew they were investigating Mr.

4 Jackson, right.

5 A. No, I thought they were just going to try to

6 ask me, and that was it. I didn’t know —

7 Q. But what you’re telling the jury is that

8 after this investigation starts and after you and

9 your family are questioned, Mr. Jackson supposedly

10 starts touching you inappropriately, right.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated to the jury last

13 week that the first time Mr. Jackson inappropriately

14 touched you, you weren’t looking at him, right.

15 A. Well, it’s like I would turn over to him

16 sometimes. I glanced over at him a couple times.

17 Q. You said you weren’t really looking at him,

18 right.

19 A. Not really.

20 Q. Okay. You said you weren’t looking at him,

21 but you could somehow feel him moving, correct.

22 A. I could feel his leg like moving up

23 against —

24 Q. Okay. After that, did you complain to your

25 mother that you had been inappropriately touched.

26 A. No. I never discussed it with my mom. I

27 never discussed it with my mom at all.

28 Q. Did you complain to Star that you had been 1946

1 inappropriately touched.

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you complain to your sister that you had

4 been inappropriately touched.

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you complain to Jay Jackson that you had

7 been inappropriately touched.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Were you upset when you say you were

10 inappropriately touched.

11 A. If I was upset.

12 Q. Yes. Were you upset.

13 A. Yeah. Because, I mean, something happened

14 to where, like, it’s not like I can go back and

15 change it; you know what I mean. It’s like

16 something that I have, like, no control of.

17 Q. Well, at this point, in your mind, your

18 mother’s been threatened and you’ve been

19 inappropriately touched, correct.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you remained at Neverland, true.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you claim you continued to stay in his

24 bedroom, right.

25 A. Well, I think he left after the second time.

26 Q. You think Michael Jackson left after the

27 second time.

28 A. Yeah, a few days after the second time. 1947

1 That’s why I’m pretty sure that it happened a few —

2 two weeks before, because I know I’m pretty sure

3 that Michael left like a day after the second time.

4 Q. Well, but you told the jury last week it was

5 a couple of days before you left for good. Do you

6 remember that.

7 A. No. You kept on saying that.

8 Q. Pardon me.

9 A. No. You kept on saying that.

10 Q. Well, let’s look at this.

11 You said that maybe a few days before you

12 left Neverland for good you were inappropriately

13 touched, right.

14 MR. SNEDDON: Judge, I’m going to object as

15 asked and answered. He was asked this morning.

16 THE COURT: Sustained.

17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember saying

18 last week, Mr. Arvizo, when I asked you when it

19 happened, you said, “No, it was more toward the end,

20 toward when we were already about to leave, after we

21 had been drinking alcohol and all that stuff. It

22 wasn’t directly after the DCSF. It was more toward

23 the end of the” — a few days before you left

24 Neverland, right.

25 MR. SNEDDON: Same objection, Your Honor.

26 Asked and answered.

27 THE COURT: Sustained.

28 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You then changed it later 1948

1 on in that examination to say, “It was a week before

2 we left,” right.

3 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

4 object to counsel. He’s just trying to read this in

5 after the objection.

6 THE COURT: Sustained.

7 Counsel, you’re — be quiet. You’re arguing

8 your case. Stop it. Start asking questions.

9 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.

Just a few moments earlier, Gavin stated that he never slept in Jackson’s bedroom when he wasn’t there, but now he’s saying that he stayed there after the abuse started because Jackson wasn’t there!

18 Q. How many times do you think you entered

19 Michael Jackson’s bedroom when Mr. Jackson wasn’t

20 there.

21 A. I never went inside his room when he wasn’t

22 there.


In this excerpt, Mesereau catches Gavin in yet another lie when he questions why Gavin told Dr. Katz that he thought a “crazy” fan of Jackson would kill him, but he told police investigators throughout numerous interviews that Frank Cascio was the only person that threatened to have his family killed. Gavin sarcastically stated that just because Dr. Katz wasn’t mentioned in the police transcripts, it doesn’t mean that he wasn’t talked about! Yeah, whatever.

27 Q. Do you remember telling Psychologist Stanley

28 Katz you thought a crazy fan of Michael Jackson will 1950

1 kill you.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You never told that to the sheriffs,

4 correct.

5 A. I’m pretty sure I discussed it with them.

6 Q. Well, it never appears in your interviews,

7 right.

8 A. Yeah, I guess it didn’t. But, I mean, it

9 doesn’t mean I didn’t tell them that.

10 Q. The only time that you used the word “kill”

11 was when you told the sheriffs that Frank had

12 threatened to kill your mom, right.

13 A. Uh-huh. In an interview.

14 Q. When did you start thinking that a crazy fan

15 of Michael Jackson will kill you.

16 A. When Frank kept on telling us that people —

17 there was death threats on us.

18 Q. What were the death threats.

19 A. I don’t know. Frank just told us that.

20 Q. Well, when you discussed that with Stanley

21 Katz, you didn’t tell him that came from Frank. You

22 told him you personally were frightened, right.

23 A. Yeah. Be — but I mean —

24 Q. Is that right.

25 A. Yes. Frank was the one that really made me

26 realize that that could happen.

27 Q. Okay. Now, did you ever discuss with

28 Michael Jackson your fear that a fan might hurt you. 1951

1 A. I don’t know.

2 Q. Did you ever discuss with Michael Jackson

3 what Frank was telling you that you thought was

4 threatening.

5 A. I don’t think I did.

6 Q. Okay. So based on your experiences, Michael

7 Jackson knew nothing about what Frank was saying to

8 you, correct.

9 MR. SNEDDON: Object. It calls for

10 speculation.

11 THE COURT: Sustained.

Mesereau next questioned Gavin about whether he and his family were telling the truth during the filming of the rebuttal video, and Gavin claimed that he was lying and saying what he was told to say by Dieter Wiesner. He then downplayed the role that Jackson played in his recovery by implying that Jackson turned his back on him by changing his phone number, which is something that he claimed Chris Tucker and George Lopez never did. This is another obvious sign of the anger and resentment that Gavin had towards Jackson, and which eventually motivated Gavin to concoct these false allegations against Jackson.

12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you were at the

13 Calabasas Inn, you never spoke to Michael Jackson,

14 right.

15 A. No, I don’t think so.

16 Q. The night before you did the rebuttal video,

17 you never spoke to Michael Jackson, right.

18 A. I might have. I don’t know.

19 Q. The day you did the rebuttal video, you

20 never spoke to Michael Jackson, right.

21 A. No. Michael was telling me that I’m going

22 to do a rebuttal for him.

23 THE REPORTER: What was the last part.

24 THE WITNESS: Michael was telling me before

25 we went that we were going to do the rebuttal for

26 him.

27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Approximately when was

28 that. 1952

1 A. Maybe right before the rebuttal.

2 Q. When you spoke on that rebuttal video, were

3 you telling the truth.

4 A. No.

5 Q. Were you lying.

6 A. Dieter had us pretty much — yeah, Dieter

7 had us lie.

8 Q. Were you lying throughout that rebuttal

9 video.

10 A. There was probably a few things that were

11 true, but, I mean, a lot of it was what Dieter told

12 us to say.

13 Q. Was it your understanding that your mother

14 was lying.

15 A. She was saying what Dieter told her to say.

16 Q. Was it your understanding she was lying.

17 A. Yes, she was lying, because Dieter told her

18 to say it.

19 Q. Was it your understanding that Star was

20 lying in that rebuttal video.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And was it your understanding that your

23 sister lied on that rebuttal video.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you were lying about Mr. Jackson helping

26 you with cancer; is that correct.

27 A. No, because Michael did help me a little

28 bit, but, I mean, he — for me, what I felt as a 1953

1 little kid, I mean, besides the fact of all this

2 money and who paid for this and who paid for that,

3 who — I felt who really helped me was my other

4 friends.

5 Because Michael, at the time when he was

6 calling me and talking to me and stuff, I felt like

7 he was my best friend. But, I mean, when he — when

8 I would call his phone numbers and a little

9 operating lady would say, “This phone is no longer

10 in service.” I mean, I never called Chris and his

11 phone was never in service. I never called George

12 and his phone wasn’t in service.

Next, Mesereau tried to cross-examine Gavin about whether he had been caught with pornography while at Neverland, but Sneddon objected and Judge Melville sustained the objection.

13 Q. Do you recall being caught at Neverland with

14 girlie magazines when you were not around Michael

15 Jackson.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Are you saying that never happened.

18 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, 403 hearing.

19 THE COURT: Sustained.

20 I’ll — that’s sort of a — you know what

21 he’s talking about on the 403 hearing, right.

22 MR. MESEREAU: I thought I was able to get

23 into these areas on cross.

24 THE COURT: Yes. That’s why I’m looking at

25 you, because I don’t want to discuss it. I just

26 want to make sure we understand each other.

27 MR. MESEREAU: Yeah, I won’t go further than

28 that on this one. 1954

1 There’s another area, too, I think the Court

2 gave me permission.

3 THE COURT: That’s correct.

Next, Mesereau asked Gavin if he had been caught masturbating at Neverland, and he denied it (which is a complete contradiction to what Jackson’s younger cousin Rijo stated in an interview with Mesereau’s investigator, and when he testified for the defense later on in the trial.) Mesereau then pivoted and asked why is it Gavin felt the need to write numerous letters to Jackson after he did the rebuttal video, which would be strange considering that Gavin claimed that all of the positive things that he and his family said about Jackson were scripted, and that Jackson began abusing him after shooting the video (he initially claimed that Jackson abused him before the rebuttal video was shot, but his story evolved over time.)

Essentially, what Mesereau was trying to establish to the jury is why would Gavin want to write Jackson letters after the rebuttal video was shot, in which he referred to Jackson as “father” and “daddy”, and thanked Jackson for all he had done during his cancer treatments, if the abuse started to occur after the shooting of the rebuttal video? Unfortunately, Judge Melville sustained Sneddon’s objection.

4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, you were

5 caught masturbating at Neverland when Michael

6 Jackson wasn’t even around, weren’t you.

7 A. No.

8 Q. You were caught masturbating in a guest

9 quarters, weren’t you.

10 A. No.

11 Q. No one ever saw you do that.

12 A. No.

13 Q. No one ever talked to you about that.

14 A. No one ever talked to me about it.

15 Q. Okay. Long after you did the rebuttal

16 video, you had written numerous letters and cards to

17 Michael Jackson thanking him for what he did for

18 your cancer, true.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Long before you did the rebuttal video, you

21 had written numerous cards and letters to Michael

22 Jackson referring to him as your father, true.

23 A. Yes. Because I missed him. I mean, I

24 wanted to know what happened, why he wasn’t calling

25 anymore. And that’s the only real way I had

26 connection with him was through mail, because I had

27 Evvy’s — I knew where Evvy was, so I could send it

28 to her. 1955

1 Q. And long before you did the rebuttal video,

2 you sent cards and letters to Michael Jackson

3 referring to yourself as his son, true.

4 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

5 object. This has all been asked and answered.

6 MR. MESEREAU: I don’t think it has.

7 THE COURT: Well, there wasn’t a time frame.

8 You have covered the cards and letters. Is there a

9 specific time frame you’re concerned about.

10 MR. MESEREAU: Any time before the rebuttal

11 video, Your Honor.

12 THE COURT: I think you’ve covered that. The

13 objection is sustained.

Mesereau then played the rebuttal video for Gavin, stopping at certain points to ask him questions about what was said and why it was said:

14 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Okay.

15 Q. We’re going to go through the rebuttal

16 video. And I’m just going to ask you some questions

17 about what you said and how you said it. Okay.

18 A. Okay.

19 MR. MESEREAU: All right. Your Honor, at

20 this time we’d like to play the rebuttal video.

21 THE COURT: What is that. “Input 4”.

22 MR. SANGER: Yes. Your Honor, for the

23 record, it’s Exhibit 340.

24 THE COURT: Exhibit 340.

25 Ready.

26 I’d like one of those whistles just before I

27 make a ruling.

28 MR. SANGER: Tell me to queue it up, Your 1956

1 Honor.

2 Just for the record, I turned the sound off

3 on this so we wouldn’t….

4 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

5 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

6 jury.)

Mesereau played the DVD and asked Gavin to confirm if statements that his mother had said about her relationship with Jackson were true (Gavin confirmed that they were), if Gavin’s statements about whether he asked his parents to sleep in Jackson’s room (Gavin confirmed he was lying), Janet’s statement about Jackson being the only person who could cure Gavin (he claimed she was lying, and that his chemotherapy and radiation treatments cured him), Davellin’s statements about the family always being turned away by people (Gavin said she was lying because George Lopez, Louise Palanker, and others helped them out a lot),


7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, you heard what your

8 mother just said, right.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And is it your belief your mother is lying.

11 A. Um, right there, not really, because I had a

12 pretty good relationship with him, you know, right

13 at the beginning.

14 Q. So you don’t think your mother is lying when

15 she makes that statement, correct.

16 A. Well, not really, because, I mean, he was

17 like really close to me in the beginning. I mean, I

18 guess, I thought I was close to him; you know what I

19 mean.

20 Q. Okay.

21 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

22 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

23 jury.)

24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, when you made

25 those statements, were you lying.

26 A. Statements about the first night.

27 Q. What you just said, yes.

28 A. The sleeping arrangements. 1957

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. No, I wasn’t lying about that.

3 Q. Have you told any lies so far in this

4 rebuttal tape.

5 A. I don’t — I remember I said something

6 that — oh, yeah, because Michael told me in the

7 office, in his office, to ask my parents if I could

8 sleep in his room. So it wasn’t — he told me to

9 ask in front of my parents.

10 Q. So are you saying this is a lie you just

11 told.

12 A. I’m just saying that — about how I asked my

13 parents.

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. That’s a lie.

16 Q. That’s a lie.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Is that the first lie you’ve told in

19 this rebuttal tape, as far as you can see.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay.

3 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

4 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

5 jury.)

6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Arvizo, you’ve heard

7 what your mother just said. Was it your belief that

8 she was lying.

9 A. There’s a part in there, like, that there

10 was no way to cure me. Dieter told us to say that.

11 Q. Okay. So that was not true.

12 A. Yeah, because they did do radiation and

13 chemotherapy.

14 Q. The truth was, you had needed radiation and

15 chemo to cure you, and what your mother said was a

16 lie, correct.

17 A. About there was no way to cure me, that

18 Michael was the only person that could cure me.

14 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

15 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

16 jury.)

17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Gavin, is your sister

18 telling the truth when she makes that statement.

19 A. Not really, because she was saying that —

20 well, she was saying that people were always turning

21 us away. And that’s not true, because, I mean,

22 Jamie Masada was helping us, Louise Palanker was

23 helping us, George Lopez was helping us. I’m pretty

24 sure — I’m not too sure, but I’m pretty sure Dieter

25 told her to say that also, that no one else was

26 helping us but Michael.

27 Q. And Chris Tucker was helping you, correct.

28 A. Yes, Chris Tucker was helping us, yes. 1960

Pay attention here, because this is arguably the most damaging piece of testimony to Gavin’s credibility! Mesereau questioned Gavin about why he initially told police that he was abused by Jackson BEFORE the filming of the rebuttal video on February 20th, 2003, but later changed his story to claim that he was abused AFTER it was filmed! When Gavin was shown the transcript of his police interviews, he claimed that it refreshed his recollection, but that “even to this day” he doesn’t “remember” exactly how everything happened. He then stuck by his current assertions that he was abused after the rebuttal video was filmed, despite his earlier statements.

Mesereau then cornered Gavin by asking him to confirm if he told Sneddon he had been abused at different times by Jackson during separate interviews, and although Sneddon objected to this question, Judge Melville overruled it, and Gavin was forced to answer. Gavin claimed that he spoke to Sneddon several times off the record (and without his conversations being recorded), and Sneddon would act “really nice” to him and “help him” and “make him feel better”. This explains why Gavin felt comfortable enough to refer to Sneddon and the other prosecutors by their first name throughout the trial!

1 Q. Okay. And this is the rebuttal video that

2 you did before the meeting with the three social

3 workers, correct.

4 A. I don’t know. I’m pretty sure I did it

5 before the social workers.

6 Q. You went the next morning to interview with

7 the social workers, didn’t you.

8 A. I think I did.

9 Q. Okay. Let me ask you a question: You said

10 repeatedly in this trial that Mr. Jackson did not

11 inappropriately touch you until after this video was

12 done, correct.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And repeatedly in this video, you make

15 statements about what a wonderful person Mr. Jackson

16 is, right.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember telling Mr. Sneddon and the

19 sheriffs on one occasion that you were molested

20 before the video was done.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I show

23 you a transcript of that interview.

24 A. Yes. Please.

25 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor.

26 THE COURT: Yes.

27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to

28 look at that transcript. 1961

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Does it refresh your recollection that

3 Mr. Sneddon was interviewing you about when these

4 acts of molestation allegedly occurred.

5 A. Yes. But the thing was, I don’t — even to

6 this day, I don’t remember exactly when everything

7 happened exactly, so I mean —

8 Q. Well, do you remember being asked, “The acts

9 of molestation, had they already begun by the time

10 you did this video, do you know.” And you said, “I

11 think so.”

12 And then Mr. Sneddon said to you, “So, in

13 your mind, one of the things that you’re thinking

14 is, they’re doing this video that they want you guys

15 to do so that if you ever told them the truth about

16 being molested, nobody would believe you,” and you

17 say, “Yeah,” right.

18 A. Well, I —

19 Q. Do you remember saying that to Mr. Sneddon.

20 A. That’s more of my opinion – you know what I

21 mean. – right there. That last statement you just

22 said on that transcript, it’s more of my opinion

23 than a state of fact.

24 Q. Well, Mr. Sneddon asked you last week when

25 this inappropriate touching supposedly occurred, and

26 you said it was after the rebuttal video was made,

27 correct.

28 A. Yes. 1962

1 Q. But in an interview with Mr. Sneddon before

2 this trial ever began, you told him differently,

3 correct.

4 A. That’s what it says right there. But it

5 happened after.

6 Q. Did someone ever say to you, “You have to

7 say it happened after, because on the rebuttal video

8 you deny he’s ever done anything wrong”.

9 A. No. No one’s ever told me that.

10 Q. Then why does your story change.

11 A. I don’t know. It happened after. I mean —

12 Q. Well, at some point did you go to Mr.

13 Sneddon and say, “I’m changing my story about when

14 this inappropriate touching happened”.

15 A. No.

16 Q. At some point did you go to the sheriffs and

17 say, “I’m changing my story about when this

18 inappropriate touching happened”.

19 A. No.

20 Q. You just suddenly got on the stand and

21 changed it.

22 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your

23 Honor.

24 THE COURT: Sustained.

25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you ever had any

26 discussion at any time with Mr. Sneddon where you

27 used words to the effect, “I’m changing my story

28 about the time this molestation happened”. 1963

1 A. No.

2 Q. Okay. When Mr. Sneddon asked you questions

3 last week about when this molestation supposedly

4 occurred, was that the first time you said to Mr.

5 Sneddon it happened after the rebuttal video.

6 A. I don’t think so.

7 Q. You don’t think so.

8 A. I don’t think that was the first time I ever

9 told him that it happened after the rebuttal video.

10 Q. So are you saying that at different times

11 you gave Mr. Sneddon different accounts of when the

12 molestation supposedly happened.

13 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

14 object to that question. Assumes facts not in

15 evidence, and it’s argumentative and speculative.

16 THE COURT: Overruled.

17 Do you want the question read back.


19 (Record read.)

20 THE WITNESS: Sometimes I would talk to

21 Mr. Sneddon without having like an interview — or,

22 like, have a recorder or something. And I would

23 talk — like, Mr. Sneddon was being really nice to

24 me. Like he was helping me, and he was making me

25 feel better about what happened and stuff. So he’s

26 been really nice to me.

Next, Mesereau caught Gavin in yet another lie by asking him to explain why he said that his brother Star stayed with him in Jackson’s room every night until the last few days they were at Neverland, yet he initially told the grand jury that Star didn’t stay in Jackson’s room the last few times. Gavin just stumbled and stuttered throughout his answer, and tripped himself up again by confusing the timeline of his alleged abuse between “the last few days” and “the last week or two”:

27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember telling

28 the Santa Barbara Grand Jury that after the Miami 1964

1 trip, your brother stayed in Michael’s room with you

2 every night until the last few days.

3 A. Yeah, he stood in my room — he stood in the

4 room with me and Michael pretty much every day.

5 Some days he wouldn’t stay there.

6 Q. Do you remember telling the grand jury that

7 until the last few days, your brother Star stayed

8 with you in Michael’s room all the time.

9 A. He stood with us — well, he — the last —

10 the last week or two, or a few days, or something

11 like that, he didn’t. Well, because my brother

12 wasn’t there when it happened, so I’m pretty sure it

13 wasn’t — he stopped staying there the last few

14 weeks.

15 Q. Do you remember telling the Santa Barbara

16 Grand Jury:

17 “Q. Was your brother staying in the room

18 with you during that time.

19 “A. Well, the last few times he didn’t, but

20 he was, like, when Michael was there — when

21 Michael was there

22 “Q. Uh-huh.

23 “A. — he stood with me for all the time

24 when Michael was there. But, like, toward the

25 end, toward the last few days, he wasn’t staying

26 with me no more.”

27 Do you remember that.

28 A. Uh-huh. 1965

1 Q. And you’ve also told this jury that the two

2 times you claim Michael Jackson inappropriately

3 touched you Star wasn’t there, correct.

4 A. Yes.

To be continued:

11 Comments leave one →
  1. June 24, 2012 10:58 pm

    I haven’t had a chance to tell you guys, but just wanted to let you know how much all your hard work is appreciated. You are providing an invaluable service to the fan community and to anyone interested in researching this case.

  2. Mado permalink
    June 21, 2012 5:34 pm

    I take this opportunity to thank you so much. God Bless you.

  3. nannorris permalink
    June 21, 2012 5:27 pm

    Well, how ridiculous is this case..The prosecutors are saying he was being groomed and he was afraid at Neverland.
    And this kid is all upset that MJ hasnt called him , he misses him..loved Neverland…
    I have read Gavins transcript before , but I hadnt realized he was still sending him cards AFTER the rebuttal…
    If that was the case and he was still sending cards , even as they were visiting lawyers ,Janet was still playing everybody…
    I cant believe the prosecutors went out and celebrated the weekend before the verdicts.
    I dont see how they could have thought they had any chance to win this thing..
    Michael was the victim
    Another great job David..

    • June 22, 2012 2:14 am

      Yes it was ridiculous and the thing is that you haven’t even seen the testimony that shows that Michael left on Feb 20th and was in Miami until March 2nd. He came back to Neverland and so did they but that is when they were told that he was not there when he was. THen he left the next day to go to Beverly Hill and stay at the Hilton to get away from them. He came back on March 9th and everyone goes to Toys R Us as well as the fans that were outside Neverland. Rijo stayed with MIchael that night too and then on the 10th is when they took the urine test to the hospital.Late that nightor early the next morning is when Janet called and said that she wanted them to come home and they were taken to her parents house in El Monte,end of story. Michael wasn’t even there most of the time that the Arvizos were there.

  4. Susan MS permalink
    June 21, 2012 11:37 am


    Thank you for your reply!

    It also comes across that Judge Melville seemed very pro-prosecution. Never lets in anything that would have shown the Arvizos sexual maturity. I’ve heard Tom Mesereau state that the Judge was very fair, but I never found him to be that way at all. I thought I read that he was friendly with Sneddon – golf buddies or something. Anyway, glad the jurors had their BS detectors on full alert.

    • Julie permalink
      June 21, 2012 1:20 pm

      Mesereau was what is called “home towned” meaning that the Santa Barbara DA and judges, etc. all take care of their own. Since he was not from Santa Barbara County, he had a much harder time getting any leeway from that judge. That’s why Sneddon was able to get MJ’s bail set so high and able to obtain the absurd amount of search warrants to go after Jackson. There mere fact that Melville allowed the 1008 evidence, but then wouldn’t allow the accuser’s sexual conduct to be part of the trial is so unbelievably telling. Melville did just enough to keep himself from judicial prejudice. Had MJ been convicted, I believe it would have been grounds for appeal on the judge’s behavior as well as the prosecutorial misconduct by Sneddon and his gang.

    • nannorris permalink
      June 21, 2012 3:37 pm

      Mesereau is still a practicing atty..and he won the case , so it is in his best interest to say Melville was fair because other judges he goes before might take offense at negative remarks regarding a judge.
      I think he was definitely pro prosecution..He never should have let the 1108 into court because it was obvious these people were lying.

      Even letting the tape of the kid in talking to police to show his emotional state or something , but not to be taken for truth.
      give me a break..
      Smartest thing Mesereau did was let that tape speak for itself and not bring Gavin back up to the stand.
      I read in A Jones book , Sneddon was flipping and looking toward the judge, almost to intervene on his behalf, but these was nothing Melville could do when the defense rested.
      Even at the frozen in time seminar , melville said he thought both sides were fair or something..baloney !

    • nannorris permalink
      June 24, 2012 11:06 pm

      This is from Mesereau “Defending Michael ” piece regarding some of Melville rulings…
      The prosecution was permitted to introduce evidence that Jackson had settled other claims of child molestation in civil court. The actual dollar amounts were not admitted (as if anyone hadn’t heard them!). It was also permitted to introduce evidence of alleged prior similar acts of child molestation. Prosecutors were permitted to introduce such evidence extending back 10 years. As icing on the cake, the court permitted them to call third-party witnesses who watched the alleged acts without any requirement that the actual alleged victims testify.

      During the prosecution’s rebuttal, the court permitted the prosecutors to play a police interview tape of the alleged victim. Of course, this was rank hearsay. The theory of admissibility was that I had challenged the demeanor of the alleged victim and the tape was relevant to rebut.

      As a measure of fairness, Melville permitted the defense to play “outtakes” of the interview footage that were edited out of the British documentary. In these interviews, Jackson denied abusing children.
      Just using phrases like “icing on the cake” and ” As a measure of fairness ” gives me the impression, while he will let the reader come to their own conclusions about the judge , in subtle ways is saying the judge was pro prosecution ,

  5. Susan MS permalink
    June 21, 2012 10:03 am

    So, on March 14, 2005, the testimony is that Gavin says “I think it was like we only stood there one night, and then after that, we stood in our units or something. Because I think that’s the only night I slept in his room, the first night.” And then he states that he slept in the guest units. And yet, the same day, March 14th, he says that after their return from Miami, he stayed in Michael’s room, every night, that Michael was there.

    Am I undertanding that correctly? He flat out states he only slept in Michael’s room the first night and then later that day he testifies that after Miami it was every night?

    Does anybody know if Deborh Kunesh is going to post her interview with Gavin’s fried?

    • nannorris permalink
      June 21, 2012 10:11 am

      I keep waiting for her interview with his friend but she said she needed to buy some software or something and it was expensive..something like that …so I dont know if she will ever have a chance to put it up..
      This kid time and time basically affirms what the defense says , then changes it up when he realizes he tripped up..
      They came acroos porn and MJ was upset and put it away.
      He basically says the 2nd time he saw the porn he and his brother brought it upstairs to mj room..
      then he includes mj name , cant remember if it was him and his brother or mj who brought it out.
      trips up on who was drinking in the wine cellar.just him and his brother..then stops himself and says mj
      complete BS


  1. March 14th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Gavin Arvizo (Cross Examination), Part 2 of 4 « Michael Jackson Vindication 2.0

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