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March 14th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Gavin Arvizo (Cross Examination), Part 4 of 4

June 23, 2012

Mesereau then began to play more portions of the rebuttal tape to Gavin, and he asked Gavin to confirm the following: was Davellin telling the truth when she tearfully stated how much Jackson’s help meant to her? (Gavin said she was being honest.) Was Janet telling the truth when she talked about being spit on and abused by society? (Gavin said that was a scripted statement by Dieter Wiesner.) Was Davellin telling the truth when she stated that Jackson talked to Gavin about girls? (Gavin said part of it was true.) Was Gavin telling the truth about calling Jackson during his cancer treatments? (Gavin stated that he was lying) Did they really feel that Jackson was closest to them as a father? (He testified that they were being honest at that time.) Whether or not he and his family discussed the lies that they were going to tell prior to shooting the video? (Gavin denied it and stated that they only discussed it with Dieter Wiesner.) And finally, if Gavin ever felt that he was a part of Jackson’s family? (Gavin stated that he felt as if he was Jackson’s family.)

8 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

9 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

10 jury.)

11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you think your sister

12 is lying when she made those statements.

13 A. No. Because, I mean, people on the news

14 media were — might have been saying something,

15 probably. I don’t know.

16 Q. So you think she’s telling the truth when

17 she says what she just said.

18 A. Probably. I mean, I looked at her, and

19 she’s crying and stuff, so….

20 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Go ahead.

21 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

22 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

23 jury.)

24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Is what your mother just

25 said correct.

26 A. No. Because we could have at any time stood

27 at my grandmother’s house. I mean, it’s not like —

28 Q. In your opinion, was your mother lying when 1966

1 she made that statement.

2 A. I remember hearing Dieter talk to her, so

3 I’m pretty sure Dieter told her to say that.

4 Q. Well, that —

5 A. We can stay at my grandmother’s house. We

6 could stay at one of our family members’ house; you

7 know what I mean. It’s not like we were spit on and

8 all this other stuff; you know what I mean.

9 Q. My question to you is, did your mother just

10 lie, in your opinion.

11 A. She’s saying what Dieter told her to say.

12 Q. Did she lie. Yes or no.

13 A. She — well, only because —

14 MR. SNEDDON: Argumentative, Your Honor.

15 THE COURT: Overruled.

16 You may answer.

17 THE WITNESS: Yes.

18 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Go ahead.

19 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

20 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

21 jury.)

22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You just heard your

23 sister’s statement; is that true.

24 A. A little bit of it is true.

25 Q. Did she lie in part of that.

26 A. I mean, because we would talk about girls at

27 times, and — like all my friends that were females

28 and stuff like that. But I mean — 1967

1 Q. You would talk with Michael Jackson about

2 your female friends.

3 A. Yeah. He would talk to me about girls and

4 how to, like, handle them; you know what I mean.

5 Like how to talk to a girl or something like that.

6 Q. So that statement’s true.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And anything else you just heard that’s not

9 true.

10 A. No, not really. No.

11 Q. Okay.

12 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

13 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

14 jury.)

15 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Was the statement you just

16 made true.

17 A. No. Because I didn’t really have a phone

18 number to call him.

19 Q. So were you lying.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. Was your mother lying also.

22 A. No, not really.

23 Q. Was she telling the truth.

24 A. Pretty much, yeah.

25 Q. After the Miami trip, were you able to call

26 Michael Jackson.

27 A. Michael would — I was at Neverland.

28 Q. Were you able to call him after the Miami 1968

1 trip.

2 A. I would talk to him when he was at

3 Neverland. I mean, I didn’t really call him.

4 Q. Did you ever call him at Neverland on any

5 phone.

6 A. I don’t know. I don’t think I did.

7 Q. You don’t remember.

8 A. I don’t remember.

9 Q. Well, there were phones you could use to try

10 to call Michael Jackson when you were at Neverland,

11 correct.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where were the phones.

14 A. All over the house and stuff.

15 Q. You tried to call him often, didn’t you.

16 A. Well, why would I try to call him if I could

17 just go and talk to him at Neverland.

18 Q. Well, it’s a large ranch, correct.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You used to spend time in the theater,

21 correct.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you ever try and call Michael Jackson

24 from the phone in the theater.

25 A. No. Because I would just go over in my

26 little cart to see Michael.

27 Q. Did you ever try to call Michael Jackson

28 from the guest quarters. 1969

1 A. No, because I had the code to his room and I

2 would go up there when he — when he was there.

3 Q. Ever try calling him from the amusement

4 area.

5 A. No. There’s not really any phones out

6 there.

7 Q. Ever try calling him from the zoo area.

8 A. No.

9 Q. When you made this rebuttal video, you could

10 get in contact with him almost any time, couldn’t

11 you.

12 A. I could drive over to where he was in my

13 cart at Neverland, but never had a phone number if

14 he left or something.

15 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.

16 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

17 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

18 jury.)

19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Is what your brother Star

20 just said true.

21 A. Yeah, Michael let us call him —

22 Q. Pardon me.

23 A. Yes, Michael let us call him “Daddy

24 Michael.”

25 Q. So what he said was correct.

26 A. Yes.

27 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.

28 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s 1970

1 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

2 jury.)

3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Was the statement you just

4 made the truth.

5 A. Yeah. Yes.

6 Q. Is what your mother just said the truth.

7 A. I guess. I mean, I don’t know if Michael

8 was trying to teach us that or —

9 A VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: We can’t hear.

10 THE WITNESS: I don’t know if Michael was

11 trying to teach us that or something.

12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Well, did your mother tell

13 the truth, in your opinion.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you tell the truth, in your opinion.

16 A. Yeah, we’d go on rides and watch movies.

17 Q. How about the other things you said, are

18 they true.

19 A. Yes.

20 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

21 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

22 jury.)

23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Is what your mother just

24 said the truth.

25 A. I kind of stopped paying attention for a

26 while.

27 Q. Excuse me. Huh.

28 A. I started looking at the roof and stuff. I 1971

1 wasn’t really paying attention.

2 MR. MESEREAU: Can we replay that, Your

3 Honor.

4 MR. SNEDDON: Well, Judge, it would call for

5 speculation on his part anyhow.

6 MR. MESEREAU: I’m asking for his opinion.

7 THE COURT: I guess you’ll have to.

8 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.

9 THE COURT: Can you do it without —

10 MR. MESEREAU: This may take a while, Your

11 Honor.

12 I think we’ll just go forward, Your Honor.

13 THE COURT: Do you want to just go forward.

14 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

15 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

16 jury.)

17 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: In your opinion, is your

18 mother telling the truth.

19 A. Yes, we felt as if he was closest to us as a

20 father and family.

21 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

22 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

23 jury.)

24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Were you telling the truth

25 when you made that statement.

26 A. What I just said right now.

27 Q. Yes.

28 A. Well, I didn’t pray to meet Michael Jackson 1972

1 when I was little.

2 Q. Did you pray to meet Michael Jackson at any

3 time.

4 A. No.

5 Q. You made a statement about Michael Jackson’s

6 charitable acts. Did you hear that.

7 A. Yeah. I knew he donated to charities. I

8 knew about that.

9 Q. Was the statement you made true.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You just heard your mother make some

12 comments.

13 A. Um —

14 Q. In your opinion, were they true comments.

15 A. I don’t really remember what she just said.

16 I’m sorry. I just —

17 Q. Well, your mother praises Michael Jackson

18 throughout this video, true.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is she telling the truth.

21 A. Some parts she is; some parts she isn’t.

22 Depends on what she’s praising him about.

23 Q. Did you and your mother discuss that you

24 were going to lie before you did this video.

25 A. No. Dieter discussed it with us.

26 Q. Did you discuss that you were going to tell

27 lies with your mother at any time before this video.

28 A. No. Dieter discussed it with us. 1973

1 Q. Did you discuss with your brother or sister

2 at any time that you were going to lie in this

3 video.

4 A. No.

5 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

6 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

7 jury.)

8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: In your opinion, did

9 Michael ever claim you and your brother and sister

10 as his kids.

11 A. Well, he would call me “son” if — depends

12 what she was trying to say, but — I don’t know.

13 Q. In your opinion, did Michael Jackson ever

14 claim that you, your brother and sister were his

15 kids.

16 A. What do you mean by “claim”. Like claim on

17 T.V., or claim on his taxes, or —

18 Q. You don’t know what I’m asking you.

19 A. Well, he said — as I said, he called us —

20 he said that, like, if he would call me “son”

21 sometimes – you know what I mean. – if that’s what

22 she’s trying to say.

23 Q. Did you ever think you were part of Michael

24 Jackson’s family.

25 A. I felt as if I was his family.

26 Q. In your opinion, did your mother think she

27 was part of Michael Jackson’s family at one point.

28 A. What did my mom believe. 1974

1 Q. No, in your opinion, did your mother think

2 she was part of Michael Jackson’s family at one

3 point.

4 A. Um, I don’t know. That’s what she believes.

5 Q. Do you know whether she felt that way or

6 not.

7 A. No. I don’t know whether she —

8 Q. In your opinion, did either your brother or

9 your sister ever think they were part of Michael

10 Jackson’s family.

11 A. I know my brother did, because my brother

12 was sad by my biological father leaving, as I was.

13 And he felt that, as I did, about Michael being

14 close to us as if he was a father because we didn’t

15 have one.

16 Q. You were looking for a family, correct.

17 A. I wasn’t really, like, going out and

18 looking; you know what I mean. I was just — came

19 across as Michael being the only older male that was

20 close to me in my life; you know what I mean.

21 Q. And you wanted to be part of the Jackson

22 family, correct.

23 A. Not really Jackson family. But just Michael

24 was there and he was like a father figure to me; you

25 know what I mean.

26 Q. You think of Paris and Prince as your

27 brother and sister.

28 A. Yeah, we would talk about it and stuff. I 1975

1 would always play with them, and I would teach them

2 stuff, and we would go look at stuff together and

3 stuff like that.

4 Q. And in your opinion, did Star and your

5 sister think of Paris and Prince as their brother

6 and sister.

7 A. I don’t know.

8 Q. But you did, right.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay.

In this excerpt, Gavin was asked if he was telling the truth about Jackson telling him to eat those cancer cells like Pac-Man (Gavin claimed that he didn’t think about what Jackson told him every time he went to chemotherapy, as he had stated in the video, and that it was another lie by Dieter Wiesner).

8 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

9 Exhibit 340, Disk 1, was played for the Court and

10 jury.)

11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Was what you have just

12 said the truth.

13 A. Yes. Pac Man; Michael did tell me to say

14 that.

15 Q. What about everything else you said.

16 A. About me going to chemotherapy.

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. No. I wouldn’t think about it every time I

19 went to a chemotherapy round.

20 Q. So were you lying at that point.

21 A. Yeah, Dieter actually told me to say that,

22 because he knew about the Pac Man.

23 Q. When I say whether you lied, I’m not asking

24 what Dieter said. I’m just asking what you, Gavin

25 Arvizo, said, all right. Did you just lie on that

26 tape.

27 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

28 object. He doesn’t even let him answer the 1978

1 question.

2 THE COURT: Yes, but it’s not necessary to

3 give a pre-statement to your question.

4 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.

5 THE COURT: Go ahead and rephrase it.

6 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you just made the

7 statement that everybody heard in this courtroom,

8 did you lie.

9 A. About the Pac Man thing, me going in every

10 single time in chemotherapy.

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay.

Next Gavin is asked how many lies he thinks he and his family said during the rebuttal video:

19 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

20 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and

21 jury.)

22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Is everything you just

23 said correct.

24 A. I don’t — I don’t think I said anything

25 right there.

26 Q. Well, you said — you’ve seen the first disk

27 of this rebuttal video, correct.

28 A. Yes. 1980

1 Q. How many lies do you think you told.

2 A. Um, I think maybe about four.

3 Q. Four lies.

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. How many lies do you think your mother told.

6 A. Four or five. I’m not — I mean —

7 Q. Four or five lies.

8 A. I wasn’t counting or anything.

9 Q. I’m just asking what your opinion is. How

10 many lies do you think your sister told.

11 A. One or two.

12 Q. And how many lies do you think Star told.

13 A. Oh, he wasn’t really talking, so I don’t

14 think he really said anything.

Here’s an interesting excerpt: Mesereau questions Gavin about his mother’s statements to someone off camera about gangs and gang signs, and Gavin states that his mother was “just making a joke”, which would seem pretty incredible considering the fact that they claimed that they were forced to shoot the rebuttal video under duress! How could they all laugh and joke if they were being threatened to shoot a video that they didn’t want to shoot, and to read a script that they didn’t write?

Gavin just accidentally shot another hole through the prosecution’s theory that they were forced to shoot the rebuttal video!

16 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

17 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and

18 jury.)

19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, your mother mentions

20 gang signs. Do you know what she’s talking about.

21 A. She was probably joking about something.

22 Q. Do you know what she was joking about.

23 A. Not really.

24 Q. She talks about friends on the west side.

25 Do you know what that’s all about.

26 A. It was just a joke, about like — because

27 you know how gangs say “east side” or “west side” or

28 something. 1982

1 Q. But you’re really not sure what she was

2 talking about, right.

3 A. Are you trying to say my mom’s in a gang or

4 something.

5 Q. No, I’m asking you a question. Do you know

6 what she was referring to.

7 A. She was making a joke.

8 Q. Okay. And what was the joke about, in your

9 opinion.

10 A. About gangs. Pretty much making fun of

11 gangs.

12 Q. Okay. And were you joining with her in

13 making fun of gangs.

14 A. I was laughing, I guess, right there.

15 Q. Okay. Did you do a gang sign.

16 A. No. She probably — I was probably pointing

17 or something, and then — I don’t know. I’m not a

18 part of a gang. I’m not a part of a crew or

19 something.

20 Q. I’m asking you if you made a gang sign in

21 this video.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know what your mother was referring

24 to.

25 A. No. She was probably just joking about

26 something that they were talking about off camera.

27 Q. Okay. But you don’t know for sure, right.

28 A. No. 1983

1 Q. Okay.

Next, Mesereau asked Gavin, out of frustration, if any of the prosecutors had told him to refer to Dieter whenever he asks questions about the rebuttal, and Gavin denied it and stated he referred to Dieter because Dieter told them what to say:

2 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

3 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and

4 jury.)

5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Is your mother telling the

6 truth.

7 A. Dieter told her to talk about the hands

8 thing.

9 Q. I’m asking if your mother is telling the

10 truth. I’m not asking about Dieter.

11 A. She talked about her opinions, so I don’t

12 know if that’s her — if she was really telling the

13 truth or not.

14 Q. Did someone tell you whenever I ask a

15 question like this, to refer to Dieter.

16 A. No. I’m referring to Dieter because

17 Dieter’s the one that told us to say all these

18 things.

19 Q. Did your mother just tell the truth, in your

20 opinion.

21 A. Um, I don’t know, because that’s her

22 opinion.

23 Q. In your opinion, Gavin Arvizo, did your

24 mother just tell the truth.

25 A. I do not know, because that’s — you can

26 call my mother and ask her that, because I don’t

27 know.

28 THE COURT: All right. Let’s take our break. 1984

1 (Recess taken.)

I want to take a moment to point out an important defense cross-examination technique that Mesereau that he just demonstrated in the above excerpt. During a speech at Cumberland School of Law in the Spring of 2007, Mesereau spoke about getting a witness to “reveal their flawed character, inherent dishonesty, or rehearsed testimony”, because doing so causes them to lose credibility in front of the jury, and Gavin certainly lost credibility when Mesereau pointed out his rehearsed “Dieter made us say it” answers to numerous questions! Mesereau encouraged Gavin to keep repeating that response by asking him similar questions about statements that were made during the rebuttal video, and Gavin fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

In deciding what you wish to accomplish in a witness examination, you are always weighing costs and benefits. Everything you do has a benefit and a drawback associated with it. If your goal is to get the witnesses to reveal their flawed character, inherent dishonesty or rehearsed testimony, it is harder to accomplish this if you ask questions that require tight control. It may be that asking a “how” or “why” question is worth the candle no matter what the witness says. In fact, if you think a witness has blindly rehearsed a response that the jury will see through, you may want to encourage that response. The price you have learned about in your trial practice class may be worth paying in order to reap a greater benefit in the trial.

Mesereau then goes into a long discussion with Gavin about how he and his family felt once they realized that they were not going to be a part of Jackson’s life anymore, and were slowly being phased out. This is one of many times during his testimony when court observers stated that Gavin showed far more anger and emotion over the fact that he lost his connection to Jackson than about any of the alleged abuse at the hands of Jackson, which allegedly occurred either “a few days” or “a week or two” before he left Neverland for good!

21 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

22 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and

23 jury.)

24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: At some point you and your

25 mother and your brother and your sister concluded

26 that Michael Jackson didn’t want you all to be part

27 of his family, right.

28 A. Yes. 1985

1 Q. And you were upset about that, correct.

2 A. We concluded because —

3 Q. Just answer my question, if you would,

4 please. Okay.

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. At some point you, your mother, your sister

7 and your brother realized that you were not going to

8 spend the rest of your lives as part of Michael

9 Jackson’s family, correct.

10 A. Well —

11 Q. Is that true or not.

12 A. It’s like we didn’t really conclude all

13 together, “Hey, everybody.” I mean, I guess we all

14 realized on our own that, like — that he isn’t as

15 nice of a man as we thought he was.

16 Q. Because he wasn’t going to let you be part

17 of the Michael Jackson family, correct.

18 A. We never wanted to be part of the Michael

19 Jackson family. The only part of it was, he was

20 just like a father to me.

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. That’s the only part in connection to a

23 family there would be. We weren’t expecting a —

24 to live with him forever. We were expecting —

25 well, we just thought of him — I thought of him as

26 a father figure.

27 Q. You expected Michael Jackson to support you,

28 your mother, your brother and your sister 1986

1 indefinitely, correct.

2 A. No.

3 Q. You wanted to be part of his family, and

4 when you found out you weren’t going to be, you got

5 angry, true.

6 A. No.

7 Q. You found out —

8 A. I — I didn’t — I never thought we were

9 going to be, “Okay, he’s going to be our dad. We’re

10 going to live in the house together,” and blah,

11 blah, blah. No.

12 He — I saw him as like someone who could

13 guide me as a father would; someone who can talk to

14 me and stuff like that. I mean, it would be stupid

15 if you wanted to live with a man like that for the

16 rest of your life. He’s not really my father.

17 Q. Would you agree that your mother got very

18 angry in front of you when she realized Michael

19 Jackson was fading out of your lives.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Would you agree that you got very angry

22 when, at some point, you realized Michael Jackson

23 was fading out of your family’s life, right.

24 A. I didn’t really get angry. I mean, it’s —

25 I mean, I didn’t think he was going to live with us

26 forever. I just — like, you know the Big Brother

27 program thing for, like, kids that don’t have dads.

28 That’s kind of what I thought of Michael as. 1987

1 Q. You expected Michael Jackson to keep helping

2 you, your mother, your brother and your sister,

3 right.

4 A. I didn’t expect it from him, no.

5 Q. And that’s why you got very angry when you

6 realized certain people wanted you to leave the

7 country, right.

8 A. Michael told me that he was going to come

9 over later after we were there, so — after we even

10 got there.

11 Q. And were you looking forward to meeting

12 Michael in Brazil.

13 A. Yes. I guess.

14 Q. And at some time did you realize that

15 Michael wasn’t going to Brazil.

16 A. No, to my understanding was that he was

17 always going to come a week later after we got

18 there.

19 Q. But at some point you realized even you

20 weren’t going to Brazil, right.

21 A. No, I thought the whole time they were

22 trying to get us to go to Brazil.

23 Q. And when you wanted to go to your

24 grandparents’, you all got into a car and Vinnie

25 drove you to your grandparents’, right.

26 A. After — yeah. Vinnie drove us there, yes.

27 Q. And at that point you realized you’re never

28 going to be in Michael Jackson’s family, right. 1988 

1 A. Well — I never wanted to be in his family.

2 I was never looking for that.

3 MR. MESEREAU: Let’s keep going.

Mesereau then tore into Gavin about the real motivation for making up his child abuse allegations against Jackson, and was forced to continually simplify the question as Gavin struggled to answer, and Judge Melville refused to force Gavin to answer the question until it was simplified. Gavin eventually admitted that he didn’t tell the police about his claims until after he had seen two civil lawyers:

4 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

5 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and

6 jury.)

7 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, your brother Star had

8 just said that going to Neverland Ranch was

9 something you always looked forward to, right.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And at one point you realized you probably

12 weren’t going to be returning to Neverland Ranch,

13 right.

14 A. After it was all over, I didn’t want to go

15 back.

16 Q. At some point you realized you weren’t going

17 to be in Michael Jackson’s family, you weren’t going

18 to Neverland Ranch, and it wasn’t until then that

19 you ever came up with these allegations of

20 molestation, right.

21 A. I didn’t want to go back after I came back.

22 Q. Please answer my question.

23 It wasn’t until you realized that you and

24 your mother and your brother and your sister were

25 not going to be part of Michael Jackson’s family

26 that you ever told anybody about any molestation,

27 right.

28 A. It wasn’t as if we got together and realized 1989

1 it. It wasn’t — so your question isn’t really

2 working.

3 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, could I request

4 that the witness be instructed to answer the

5 question.

6 THE WITNESS: I don’t really understand the

7 question.

8 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. Rephrase

9 your question.

10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. It wasn’t until you

11 realized you were not going to be part of Michael

12 Jackson’s family, you were not going to meet Michael

13 Jackson in Brazil, you were not going to be going to

14 Neverland, that you ever came up with these

15 allegations of molestation, right.

16 A. I didn’t come and talk to the — to the —

17 my mom always wanted to leave. She was the one that

18 was able to realize and get us out of there. I

19 liked being there.

20 MR. MESEREAU: Excuse me.

21 Your Honor, can I ask the witness be

22 instructed to just answer the question.

23 THE COURT: No.

24 THE WITNESS: I don’t understand —

25 THE COURT: Just a minute.

26 No. Your question is compound and it’s

27 argumentative. Break your question down.

28 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. I will, Your Honor. 1990

1 Q. Until you realized you were not going to be

2 part of Michael Jackson’s family, you never made any

3 allegation of child molestation, correct.

4 A. I didn’t want to be part of his family. I

5 just saw him as a father figure.

6 Q. Until you realized Michael Jackson was not

7 going to meet you in Brazil, you never made any

8 allegation of child molestation, right.

9 A. I didn’t even really want to go to Brazil.

10 Q. Until you left Neverland for the last time,

11 you never made any allegation of child molestation,

12 correct.

13 A. I didn’t tell anyone until I left for the

14 last time, correct.

15 Q. And never called the police until after

16 you’d seen two lawyers, right.

17 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your

18 Honor.

19 THE COURT: Overruled.

20 THE WITNESS: Yes, it wasn’t until I saw two

21 lawyers until I told the police what really

22 happened.

23 MR. MESEREAU: Okay. We can keep going.

Here is an interesting observation from Nan, one of our dedicated readers: if Gavin had actually been molested, wouldn’t he want to address that part of the question, and not address how he didn’t want to be a part of the Jackson family? Think about it!

Next, Gavin finally admitted that Jackson was of some help to his family:

7 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

8 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and

9 jury.)

10 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: At this point in time, did

11 you agree with what your mother just said. Did you

12 think Michael was there for you.

13 A. Yeah, I believe — I thought that Michael

14 was there for us. But he — he helped us.

Next, Gavin denies praying with Jackson and his family while in the movie theater, although Mesereau explicitly stated that he did in his opening statement:

15 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

16 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and

17 jury.)

18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, you and your family

19 did pray with Michael, correct.

20 A. Yes. I believe we asked him if we can pray

21 at the dinner tables.

22 Q. You also one time were in the theater; you,

23 your mother, your brother and your sister and

24 Michael. Remember that.

25 A. We were in the theater a lot together.

26 Q. Do you remember your mother wanted everyone

27 to hold hands and pray with Daddy Michael.

28 A. No. 1992

1 Q. You don’t remember that at all.

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. Did you typically pray at the dinner

4 table with Michael.

5 A. We would ask him sometimes.

6 Q. You asked him and he said, “Okay”.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what prayers did you say.

9 A. “Thank God for the food we were going to

10 eat,” and stuff like that.

11 Q. Okay.

Here is what Mesereau said about this incident during his opening statement:

17 Ladies and gentlemen, Michael Jackson will

18 tell you one time at Neverland he got a very bad

19 feeling and intuition. They were in the theater

20 that you’ve heard about. There is a theater at

21 Neverland, where you can just go in, and kids can

22 have their seats. It’s on an incline. You got a

23 stage and you got a big screen.

24 He was there with Janet Arvizo and the three

25 kids, Gavin, Star and Davallin. And all of a

26 sudden, Janet Arvizo grabs Michael’s hand and has

27 her children all hold hands, and she says, “Let’s

28 all kneel down and pray with our Daddy Michael.” 197

1 And Michael Jackson got a very bad feeling.

2 And after that, he concluded, “I got to get away. I

3 got to get away. I love helping this child, but

4 something is wrong.”

5 And we will prove to you that he was warned

6 by others, “Get away.”

 

Next, Mesereau questioned Gavin about his claims that he thought Jackson was a father figure to him, until he met his new step-father Jay Jackson. Mesereau asked Gavin why did he feel that Jackson was such a father figure to him when Jay Jackson was already in his life prior to the filming of the rebuttal video, and Gavin said it was because they were not as close in the beginning of their relationship.

Ironically, Mesereau asked if the reason that Janet Arvizo had a curl running her face is because she was trying to look like Janet Jackson, and Gavin of course denied it!

1 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

2 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and

3 jury.)

4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When these statements were

5 made, you did not want your relationship with Mr.

6 Jackson to end, correct.

7 A. No, I still wanted to be able to call him

8 and stuff like that.

9 Q. And among all the celebrities that you had

10 met, no celebrity had included you in their family

11 the way Michael Jackson had, right.

12 A. He didn’t really include me in his family.

13 I just — as I said before, I looked to him as a

14 father figure, and he looked at me as a son, because

15 he was the only father figure I had.

16 Q. And your letters to him reflected that,

17 correct.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Your calls to him reflected that, correct.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you went to the ranch, you felt you

22 were part of a family, correct.

23 A. As I just told you, I felt as if he was my

24 guider, my — a teacher to me in life. A father

25 figure to me.

26 Q. And when you left Neverland for the last

27 time, you felt your father had rejected you,

28 correct. 1994

1 A. Not really, because I found a new father.

2 I found my now father.

3 Q. When you left Neverland, did you feel that

4 the father figure Michael Jackson had rejected you;

5 yes or no.

6 A. I didn’t need him. I didn’t want him.

7 Q. When you left Neverland for the last time,

8 did you feel that the father figure Michael Jackson

9 had rejected you; yes or no.

10 A. As I said, I didn’t feel that. I didn’t

11 feel that I was rejected, because I had my now,

12 which I consider my real father.

13 Q. You knew Jay Jackson long before these

14 statements were made, correct.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You knew Jay Jackson long before you were

17 referring to Michael Jackson as a father figure,

18 correct.

19 A. Not long before, but, I mean, he was my

20 mom’s boyfriend. I didn’t know him. I wasn’t close

21 to him.

22 But when I came back, I saw his concern.

23 I saw the way he felt about my family and how he

24 would hug me, and actually feel like he’s a man; you

25 know what I mean. And he’s my father.

26 Q. At the time you and your mother and your

27 brother and your sister made the statements on this

28 video, your mother had been in a relationship with 1995

1 Jay Jackson for many months, true.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. At the time your mother makes these

4 statements that Michael Jackson is a father figure,

5 she’s in a relationship with Jay Jackson, right.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Jay Jackson wasn’t present when this video

8 was done, correct.

9 A. No.

19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: While your mother was

20 dating Jay Jackson, you considered Michael Jackson a

21 father figure, right.

22 A. Yes. Well, if — she was dating her — him

23 right now, so in this time period I did see Michael

24 as a father figure.

25 Q. Approximately when did you first meet Jay

26 Jackson.

27 A. I don’t know. I don’t remember the first

28 time. But — I mean, I didn’t get close to him 1997

1 until I came back from Neverland.

2 Q. It was many months before this, correct.

3 A. Yes, I believe so.

4 Q. In fact, after this rebuttal was filmed, you

5 went to Jay Jackson’s apartment for the interview

6 with the three social workers, right.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you living at his apartment at that

9 point.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How long had you been living at Jay

12 Jackson’s apartment at that point.

13 A. A few months. But he was just my mom’s

14 boyfriend. He wasn’t my stepfather yet.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. He was just a guy. He was not my stepfather

17 yet.

18 Q. So you had lived at Jay Jackson’s apartment

19 for a couple of months before this rebuttal video

20 was filmed, right.

21 A. I believe so, yes.

22 Q. But during those months you considered

23 Michael Jackson to be your father figure, right.

24 A. No, in those months I had no father figure.

25 That’s why when I came to Neverland and Michael was

26 like this, I considered Michael as my father figure.

27 MR. MESEREAU: Let’s keep going.

28 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s 1998

1 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and

2 jury.)

3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you discuss with Jay

4 Jackson what your mother was going to say in this

5 video.

6 A. No. I don’t even know — I didn’t even know

7 that Jay Jackson even knew about this.

8 Q. Do you recall any discussion at any time

9 with Jay Jackson about you and your family being

10 videotaped.

11 A. No, I do not.

12 Q. You recall going to Jay Jackson’s apartment

13 after this was filmed, right.

14 A. Not really.

15 Q. Did you ever discuss with Jay Jackson this

16 videotape after it was filmed.

17 A. No, I don’t think I did.

18 Q. Have you ever discussed with Jay Jackson at

19 any time the fact that you made this videotape.

20 A. No, I don’t think so.

21 Q. Have you ever heard your mother discuss it

22 with Jay Jackson.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now, your mother has a curl coming down her

25 face. Do you see that.

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Did she normally wear her hair that way.

28 A. Yeah, when she had her hair permed, she 1999

1 always wore it like that.

2 Q. Always like that.

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. Was she ever trying to look like Janet

5 Jackson.

6 A. No.

7 Q. Okay.

In this excerpt, Gavin claims that he was shown sheets of paper with the questions that Dieter wanted the family to answer:

8 (Whereupon, a portion of a DVD, People’s

9 Exhibit 340, Disk 2, was played for the Court and

10 jury.)

11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Now, you’ve told the jury

12 a number of times that Dieter was telling you what

13 to say on this, is that correct.

14 A. Dieter told us a lot of things to say.

15 Q. Dieter told you general things to say.

16 A. Yes. He told us what to say pretty much,

17 yeah.

18 Q. And I believe when Prosecutor Sneddon was

19 asking you questions, he talked about some type of a

20 sheet of questions. Do you remember that.

21 A. Uh-huh.

22 Q. Did somebody show you a sheet with some

23 questions on it before you did this interview.

24 A. Yes, actually, and kind of waving it in

25 front of the camera right here.

26 Q. And how many sheets are you talking about.

27 A. I’m not sure how many sheets it was.

28 Q. It was just a certain number of questions 2001

1 they told you they were going to ask you, correct.

2 A. Yes. And Dieter went over it with us and

3 told us the answer, what to say.

4 Q. At the time when Dieter went over those

5 questions with you, did you think Michael Jackson

6 had abandoned you as a father figure.

7 A. No. Not then.

8 Q. Okay.

As the day drew to a close, Mesereau finished up by grilling Gavin on his recollection of the numerous shopping trips he and his family made, and as expected, Gavin had no recollection whatsoever of most of the trips! I personally find it hard to believe that someone that was being held against his will, and then is forced to go shopping numerous times over a course of almost 3 weeks, and spends a grand total of $3,312.05 doesn’t have any recollection of any of it!

6 Q. Okay. Do you recall your mother making any

7 trips outside of Neverland into the city to do

8 errands.

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you recall your mother going shopping

11 with Vinnie Amen.

12 A. No.

13 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me, I’m going to object

14 to vagueness as to what period of time we’re talking

15 about here.

16 MR. MESEREAU: Sure.

17 Q. We’re talking about February 21st, which

18 would be the same day you met Attorney William

19 Dickerman and Jamie Masada at The Laugh Factory.

20 Do you remember that.

21 A. I remember meeting him.

22 Q. Do you remember your mother going shopping

23 with Vinnie.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you remember your mother getting her hair

26 done with Vinnie.

27 A. No.

28 Q. Do you remember shopping at Robinson’s-May. 2007

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you remember shopping — excuse me.

3 Do you remember eating at an Outback Steakhouse.

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you remember your mother going to any

6 salon that day.

7 A. I think I remember my mom go to a salon and

8 meet my stepfather.

9 Q. Do you know when that was, approximately.

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you remember going on a shopping spree

12 around February 26th with your mother.

13 A. I don’t know. I remember they took us to

14 Anchor Blue once because we told them that we didn’t

15 have a lot of clothes at Neverland, and they didn’t

16 want us to go to our house.

17 Q. Do you remember going to Pacific Sunwear.

18 A. No.

19 Q. How about Banana Republic.

20 A. Yes. I bought some boxers, I think.

21 Q. How about Gap Outlet.

22 A. No.

23 Q. How about Levi Outlet.

24 A. No.

25 Q. How about Abercrombie & Fitch.

26 A. No.

27 Q. Wilson’s Luggage, did you ever go there with

28 your mother. 2008

1 A. Yeah, they bought us luggage because they

2 were saying they were going to take us to Brazil,

3 and we didn’t have luggage.

4 Q. Now, two days later — excuse me, one day

5 later, do you recall going shopping to

6 Robinson’s-May.

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you recall going shopping to Adidas.

9 A. No.

10 Q. How about Old Navy.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Anchor Blue.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Robinson’s-May.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay. Do you remember on February 28th

17 going to Hsong’s Barber Shop for a haircut.

18 A. I got my hair cut there, but I don’t know if

19 we went on February 28th.

20 Q. Do you remember going there with your

21 mother.

22 A. I remember going there in the past with my

23 mother.

24 Q. When you were there, did anyone scream for

25 help.

26 A. I don’t know if we went on February 28th to

27 Hsong’s Barber Shop.

28 Q. When you went to Hsong’s Barber Shop, did 2009

1 anyone scream for help, as far as you know.

2 A. As I said, I don’t remember whether we went

3 there during the time that we were down in Los

4 Angeles area.

5 Q. Do you remember anyone screaming for help at

6 any of the stores that you recall going to during

7 this period of time.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you remember going to the Brazilian

10 consulate.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You went in there with your mother, right.

13 A. Yes, I’m pretty sure.

14 Q. Do you remember anybody screaming for help

15 in the Brazilian consulate.

16 A. No.

17 Q. You were with your entire family, right.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Do you remember seeing a movie called

20 Old School around March 1st, 2003.

21 A. A little bit.

22 Q. Your mother, your brother, your sister and

23 you went to that movie theater, right.

24 A. I don’t really remember.

25 Q. You also went to Anchor Blue that day,

26 right.

27 A. I believe so. I guess.

28 Q. When you went to see that movie, do you 2010

1 remember anybody screaming for help.

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you remember eating at Johnny Rocket’s

4 Burgers that day.

5 A. Oh, yeah. I remember that place. It was

6 pretty good.

7 Q. And that was after you saw the movie, right.

8 A. I don’t know.

9 Q. You went for burgers and ice cream, right.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you remember anybody screaming for help

12 when you were at Johnny Rocket’s.

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. Do you know someone named Brad Buxer.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you ever meet any of Michael Jackson’s

17 movie producers at Neverland.

18 A. No.

Finally, Mesereau’s cross examination for the day ended with questions about Gavin’s recollections of his time with Jackson’s young cousin Rio Jackson, who gave statements to Mesereau’s investigators that he was shown pornographic movies by Gavin and Star in one of the guest units at Neverland, and witnessed them masturbate. Star asked Rio if he “jacked off” before, and this made Rio very upset.  Rio also witnessed Star and Gavin steal a bottle of wine that was brought to his hotel room in Miami, and drink it without permission.  Rijo’s interview can be read on pages 13-15 of this defense filing.

Gavin claimed that he “couldn’t remember” watching television with Rio, stealing money from Jackson’s room, masturbating in front of Rio, drinking wine, and everything else that Rio told investigators that he saw. Gavin also denied ever being coached by his mother on what to say during his JC Penney deposition, which is contradicted by his father David’s interviews to Mesereau’s investigators (on pages 8 through 25 of his document).  

 

19 Q. Do you know someone named Rio.

20 A. I think he was a little kid that was there

21 for a while.

22 Q. When did you first meet Rio.

23 A. I don’t remember.

24 Q. But do you remember seeing Rio at Neverland.

25 A. Yeah, he stood there for like a week or —

26 Q. Did you stay in a guesthouse with Rio.

27 A. No.

28 Q. Never did. 2011

1 A. No. Well, I might have hung out with him

2 for a while. No, I hung out with his sister, you

3 know. And she was telling me about some girls that

4 thought I was cute from the Martin Bashir thing, and

5 then that was it.

6 Q. This is Rio’s sister.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was there a television in the guest room at

9 Neverland.

10 A. There’s a television in every guest room.

11 Q. Did you ever use that television.

12 A. We were always playing. We never watched

13 T.V.

14 Q. Was Rio ever in a room with you at the

15 guesthouse.

16 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to

17 object to this line of questioning under the 403

18 ruling the Court made.

19 THE COURT: Sustained.

20 Well, just a minute. I will change that

21 ruling. You may ask.

22 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.

23 Q. Was Rio ever in a guest room with you when

24 you were watching T.V. at Neverland.

25 A. Um, no. I don’t remember really — I mean,

26 I might have hung out with him in a guest room for a

27 minute, but, I mean, I don’t remember watching T.V.

28 with him. 2012

1 Q. You don’t.

2 A. No.

3 Q. Are you saying you don’t remember or are you

4 saying it just didn’t happen.

5 A. I don’t think it happened.

6 Q. Okay. Do you recall ever telling Rio you

7 wanted to look at adult movies on television at

8 Neverland.

9 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object.

10 THE COURT: Overruled.

11 THE WITNESS: No, I don’t remember that.

12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Ever remember stealing

13 alcohol from Michael Jackson’s bedroom when Rio was

14 present.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you recall stealing a $1,000 laminated

17 bill from Michael’s room.

18 A. A thousand dollar bill.

19 Q. That was laminated.

20 A. Do they make thousand-dollar bills.

21 Q. Did you ever steal one.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Ever recall masturbating in front of Rio.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony, you said

26 that the only time you’d ever tasted wine was in

27 church. Do you remember that.

28 A. Yes. 2013

1 Q. Are you telling the jury the only time you

2 tasted wine before you went to Neverland was in a

3 church.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you ever tell Rio or anyone else at

6 Neverland that you knew what wine tasted like.

7 A. No. I don’t remember telling him that.

8 Q. Do you remember calling Chris Tucker and

9 telling him that you wanted to go to Miami to be

10 with Michael Jackson.

11 A. No.

12 Q. That never happened.

13 A. I don’t know if it did.

14 Q. You don’t know if it did.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did your mother ever ask you to call Chris

17 Tucker so that your family could go to Miami to be

18 with Michael Jackson.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Has your mother ever coached you on what to

21 say in this case.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Has your mother coached you on what to say

24 in your legal disputes with your father.

25 A. No.

26 Q. Has your mother ever coached you on what to

27 say in the J.C. Penney case.

28 A. No. 2014

1 Q. Has your mother asked you to write out what

2 you were going to say before you went to court.

3 A. No.

4 Q. Have you ever done that.

5 A. Done —

6 Q. Written out what you plan to say before you

7 went to court.

8 A. No.

9 THE COURT: Is this a good place to stop.

10 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.

11 THE COURT: All right. We’ll recess until

12 tomorrow morning at 8:30. Remember the admonitions.

13 See you then.

14 (The proceedings adjourned at 2:30 p.m.)

To be continued: https://michaeljacksonvindication2.wordpress.com/2012/06/26/march-15th-2005-trial-analysis-gavin-arvizo-cross-examination-terry-flaa-jeff-klapakis-and-steve-robel-direct-examination-part-1-of-3/  

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36 Comments leave one →
  1. December 29, 2012 5:06 pm

    In his closing statement:

    “Zonen said Jackson began giving the boy alcohol and even though his mother at that time was unaware of any molestation, she insisted that her family leave Neverland.”

    Gavin never told his mother about the alcohol, or she didn’t know about it until after they’d left Neverland, I thought?

  2. shellywebstere permalink
    July 17, 2012 11:56 pm

    “Oh and the story from his book about Wade actually happened in 1992.Of course it was overly embellished in his book. Joy Robson told Bill Bray about it. So he was in on it from the get go.”

    We don’t really know that, the story about Robson is from Blanca Francia.

    • lynande51 permalink*
      July 18, 2012 10:44 am

      Yes Jermaine confirmed it in his book. He said that Joy Robson told Bill Bray about VG finding her and talking to her in 1992.

    • shellywebstere permalink
      July 18, 2012 3:42 pm

      But how Jermaine knows that? Did she told him or did he read on Internet?

    • July 18, 2012 11:26 pm

      He spoke to Joy for his book.

  3. shellywebstere permalink
    July 17, 2012 11:54 pm

    “The pictures of the Casios started after the news broke about the allegations.”

    But the Chandlers knew about the Cascio, the Cascios brothers were at Neverland in February 1993. VG could have made a story about them too.

    • July 18, 2012 11:27 pm

      My belief is VG had seen some families with Mike in the press, and he knew their names, so he could tell that to Evan. But he didn’t know anything about the Cascio’s because they hadn’t been seen in public with MJ.

  4. lynande51 permalink*
    July 17, 2012 11:04 pm

    Oh and the story from his book about Wade actually happened in 1992.Of course it was overly embellished in his book. Joy Robson told Bill Bray about it. So he was in on it from the get go.

  5. lynande51 permalink*
    July 17, 2012 10:41 pm

    @ Shelly
    The pictures of the Casios started after the news broke about the allegations. That is another way you can tell that the story originated from VG’s book. In an interview he says that the police took his original book when they talked to him. That was from the British GQ interview.From an article in the LA Times we know that the police questioned him for several hours on two separate days. Even the FBI mention “an author that is writing a book about Michael Jackson”. That is in the FBI files too. So when you look at the fact that all of the people that Jordan mentions have been seen in the public with Michael it is because those are the ones that VG knew about because basically what he did was stalk Michael and from employees he found out about who the kids were. He was in on helping the Chandlers fabricate that story and he was the one I see as most likely to have leaked all the information about it to the tabloids. And he got the information directly from Evan Chandler because he would have been the only one that would have been ableto give it to him.And just to make it really clear VG made it up and Evan Chandler followed it. He found them somehow because of the tabloid coverage of them together in Monaco. One thing that I have noticed is that he always manages to find a Hispanic person somewhere to help him with his information.Did you guys know that Adrian McManus was hispanic?Just take a minute to think about all of his stories and you will be able to find the link. After that he always found a way to get in touch with one parent or another. For all we know he approached June too except that she was not recpetive to him and Evan was because he was so greedy.
    Yeah he made it up and Evan followed it. He was one of the people in on it from the beginning and it fits his M.O. In his home country of Chile he has been taken to court at least two other times for doing exactly the same thing to a prominent public figure in that country. Yeah he was in on it from the beginning.

  6. shellywebstere permalink
    July 17, 2012 9:02 pm

    @lacienaga,

    Yes, but there were lots of pictures of them in the media in 1993, and they were at Neverland at the beginning of 1993.

  7. stacy permalink
    July 17, 2012 6:23 pm

    Tom Mesereau described the prosecution team as mean-spirited, nasty and barbaric in the way they treated MJ during the trial. They seemed to really dislike Michael. It’s one thing if you believe someone is guilty, but you should always remain objective and professional. They tried their best to dehumanize and embarass him like Zonen calling his shopping spree “ridiculous” and talking about his “sagging music career” during jury selection. They would attack anyone who came to his defense, but at the end, Michael got the last laugh because he was acquitted on everything.

  8. shellywebstere permalink
    July 17, 2012 5:42 pm

    “Brett and his family were at Neverland when it was searched the first time and he was questioned by the investigators then.”

    Yes, but there were lots of time when he wasn’t with them. The european part of the Dangerous tour ended in November 1992 and he had concerts in Japan in December while they probably were at Neverland, then you have all the Chandler’s stuff and the beginning of the 2nd leg of the tour where he wasn’t with them. The DA also knew there were others kids with Brett when he slept with MJ.

    • lynande51 permalink*
      July 17, 2012 6:19 pm

      There was time when he wasn’t there but they were with Michael somewhere else. When Michael went to England and Africa then to Chicago what they don’t seem to get is that Karlee was with on some of those trips becaue she even says she got to go to Chicago, Las Vegas and so many places she couldn’t remember them all. A lot of that is explained by Marie Barnes in her testimony when she explains about her husband working for a certain amount of time for the Australian Govenrment that he got very long extended vacation that have a certain name but I don’t remember what they are now. And don’t forget that one of the reasons that I believe the Chandlers named Brett was to discredit him because he, just like Frank Cascio could tell the truth about them.
      Take for instance what VG does in his book when he makes these parents seem like not only bad parents but something to discredit them. He said that Marie Barnes was the one that stole a bunch of stuff from MJ to discredit her in the public eye. He did the same thing with Mac’s mom. He said she was busy smoking pot with her husband and even June Chandler started drinking. It was all part of the story and a way to discredit the people that would tell the truth.

    • shellywebstere permalink
      July 17, 2012 6:43 pm

      @lynande,

      I believe most of the storyies with the Barnes in VG’s book are made up by VG himself probably without the Chandlers. Jordan never really spoke about Brett in the different interviews that he did, even in the Gardner interview. I don’t understand why VG never spoke about the Cascios.

    • July 17, 2012 8:05 pm

      The Cascio’s hadn’t been public with MJ yet, so Victor didn’t know about them.

  9. stacy permalink
    July 17, 2012 4:35 pm

    @shelly

    Yeah I think Karlee may have been off with her calculations. The prosecution used her estimation in their closing argument as proof of guilt and so did the media..

    • shellywebstere permalink
      July 17, 2012 4:59 pm

      Yes and if you read James Van Norman testimony, you realised that Sneddon knew it was false because he himself spoek about a month and a half trip to South America. He said it was a month and an half in Mexico but I think he confused the trip to South America with the trip to Africa (he asked Van Norman if he remember that they were trying to hide Barnes from the media).

    • lynande51 permalink*
      July 17, 2012 5:35 pm

      When Karlee started to be cross examined it was by Auchincloss and it went like this:

      CROSS-EXAMINATION

      11 BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS:

      12 Q. Good afternoon, Miss Barnes.

      13 A. Hello.

      14 Q. You are positively thrilled to be a friend

      15 of Michael Jackson’s, aren’t you?

      16 A. Absolutely.

      17 Q. You seem almost giddy about it.

      18 A. I love him with all of my heart. I’ve known

      19 him since I was about seven or eight years old, so

      20 he’s one of my closest fields.

      21 Q. Do you feel giddy when you’re going to see

      22 him a little bit, excited?

      23 A. I feel no more excited than I would if I was

      24 seeing one of my other close friends that I haven’t

      25 seen in a while.

      26 Q. Well, but he’s different, isn’t he?

      27 A. No, he’s not. He’s just a normal human

      28 being like anybody else. He’s got the same organs, 9407

      1 the same blood, the same emotions, the same feelings

      2 as anyone else.

      3 Q. Well, but not everybody has Neverland, true?

      4 A. Well, he’s worked hard to get everything

      5 that he wants, so everything that he has he’s worked

      6 really, really hard for.

      7 Q. And he shares it with you?

      8 A. Yes.

      9 Q. And you love going to Neverland?

      10 A. Of course I do.

      11 Q. You get thrilled when you get to go there?

      12 A. Of course.

      13 Q. And when you were a child and you got to go

      14 to Neverland, it’s kind of like having everything

      15 you ever wanted as a kid, isn’t it?

      16 A. It’s like going to a theme park and a zoo

      17 all at once, yeah.

      18 Q. But it’s better than that, isn’t it?

      19 A. Well, I guess so, yeah.

      20 Q. Because it’s all yours, it’s all private,

      21 right? No other kids, no crowds?

      22 A. There are other kids, though, because, you

      23 know, it’s even better when there are other people

      24 there to, you know, play games with, have fun with

      25 and share things with.

      26 Q. Haven’t you been there when it was just your

      27 family?

      28 A. Yes, I have. 9408

      1 Q. And you get to stay up late?

      2 A. Yes.

      3 Q. And you get to have whatever you want to eat

      4 whenever you want it, right?

      5 A. Like when I’m on any other vacation or

      6 holiday, yes.

      7 Q. And you can play with Michael Jackson, the

      8 superstar, right?

      9 A. No, Michael Jackson, the human being.

      10 Q. Well, he is a superstar.

      11 A. Yeah, I recognize that, but he’s also a

      12 normal human being like anybody else.

      13 Q. But didn’t you say that you were a huge fan

      14 of Michael Jackson’s before you ever met him?

      15 A. Yes. Yes, I was. And I’m still a huge fan

      16 of his music today.

      17 Q. Okay. So you greatly admire him for that?

      18 A. I admire him for many things, yes, including

      19 his music.

      She could tell immediately that she was being ridiculed and her responses to the questions were a bit sarcastic I think because when she actually says about the number of days it was more like a “you do the math” thing because she had already been attacked by the prosecution.
      The witnesses that they quote don’t actually say the things that the media would like to say they said. There answer is in respose to a question that contains what it is that they said not the witness.Just like Kiki Fournier she never called them special friends,Auchincloss did when he asked the question.
      Her answer was actually a half a school year and another half of a school year and what people don’t realize is that the entire Barnes family spent a whole year with Michael from the beginning of the Dangerous Tour until September of 1993. Brett and his family were at Neverland when it was searched the first time and he was questioned by the investigators then. He and his entire family were questioned at the time. His father was never absent he was always there and he was questioned too.
      I think when she said that she was being sarcastic in response to what she felt was Auchincloss’s sarcasm to her.And don’t forget she was part of the whole thing in 1994 when Sneddon went to Australia and they searched Neverland. It could very well have been that she was pretty angry about it too just like the rest of her family. I guess we have to take into consideration how we react to someone when they are ridicuing us or someone that we love. Are we nice about it or smart about it or do we just try to tell that person off. Considering she was on the witness stand when this took place I think she showed great restraint to what she might say to someone on the street.
      When you read the testimony from that day what the prosecution was really pissed about was that they said they didn’t get discovery on the witnesses. It appears that they were probably going to go for the testimony from the Barnes family to be stricken.
      I get the definite feeling that they hated MJ so much they were willing to even ridicule him as a host.
      As for Ray Hultman he was what he was. When he said that he was already signed to a book deal so of course he was already told to say he thought he did it.

  10. lynande51 permalink*
    July 17, 2012 12:46 pm

    Here are the excerpts from an article written in The New York Post and from Dimond’s book. There seems to be a discrepancy in the two stories but it should definitely be pointed out that her source for the excerpts in her book are from none other than Adrian McManus, one of the Neverland Five and one of the plaintiffs in a case where she denied on the stand that she did not have contact with the tabloids and did not sell her stories to Splash News via Victor Gutierrez. She was found to be perjurous in the case because her hand written notes were found on the articles given to her prior to printing for her approval.In other words her source is a proven liar and thief so that does undermine her credibility in her testimoy during the trial and at any other time. I suspect that the prosecution and especially Dimond wanted to throw suspicion on the jury’s verdict and this was one way that they did it.
    Here is the defense Supplemental Brief In Support of Opppostion To District Attorney’s Motion For Admission Of Alleged Prior Offenses. The information that involves McManus and Chacon is on page 6.

    http://www.sbscpublicaccess.org/docs/ctdocs/032505suppopp1108.pdf

    Here is what is written about her prior to the verdict in Dimond’s New York Post article.
    http://dianedimond.net/articles/nyp-articles/nypost-060505/

    The oldest of the panel is Juror No. 5, a 79-year-old widow whose grandson is a registered sexual deviant. She told the court she felt her family’s experience with that situation would make her a better juror in this case.
    Juror No. 5
    White female
    Age 79
    Retired
    Widow; son and daughter in their 50s
    Some college
    Grandson a registered sexual deviant
    Lived in the county a little over a year
    Once bought perfume from a JC Penney clerk who once worked at Neverland Ranch

    From page 314, paragraph two of, Be Careful Who You Love: Diane Dimond, Simon and Schuster, 2005

    And there was another controversy surrounding Eleanor Cook that can now be revealed. In early May after Wade Robson and Bret Barnes had been called to the witness stand on the opening day of the defense, juror number five went shopping after court. She went to the local JCPenney store on South Broadway and Stowell Avenue in Santa Maria, just a few blocks from the courthouse. There she sought out her pal Adrian McManus, who had worked at the store for many years. The older woman had revealed to the court during jury selection that she knew the former Neverland Maid, but she claimed they were not close, only that she once bought some perfume from McManus. In reality, they had a closer relationship than Cook let on. Adrian McManus said she and the widow would take drives together, eat a meal on occasion, and once Cook counseled her about an attorney she might want to hire.
    Elanor Cook should never have been anywhere near a witness in a case on which she was sitting in judgment__ but there she was talking openly to McManus. As law enforcement later learned, Cook took McManus aside in the store, in full view of others, and praised her friend for doing well when she testified for the prosecution on April 7 and 8.
    In an interview, McManus later revealed that during this discussion at JCPenney, Elanor Cook spoke to her about her thoughts as Robson and Barnes were testifying. Cook allegedly said she wrote in her juror’s notebook, as the two men spoke, “Liars, liars, liars”.
    Elanor Cook also reportedly told McManus that she could never, ever vote to let Michael Jackson go free. She was completely convinced Jackson was a pedophile, according to McManus. Cook had personal knowledge of sexual offenders, as her grandson had been ordered by an undisclosed court to register for five years as a sexual deviant.
    Cook presence in the store that day can be verified both by eyewitnesses who saw her there and, according to Adrian McManus, by store transaction receipts. When Elanor Cook paid for the clothing she bought she used her JCPenney charge card. McManus rang up the transaction under her traceable employee number. Together, the charge card and the employee numbered transaction provided a paper trail to prove a juror’s flagrantly improper visit with a prosecution witness.
    After court the very next day, Cook came back to return a pair of slacks that didn’t fit. Adrian McManus reported that she had a second conversation with the woman. According to McManus, the widow told her that she knew they shouldn’t be talking, but she was emotional because a dear acquaintance of thirty-five years had just passed away and she needed someone to talk to. McManus claims Cook told her that if she ever told anyone about her comments regarding the guilt of Michael Jackson, she would have to call her a liar.
    On June 17th, four days after the verdict and following her whirlwind trip to New York courtesy of ABC, Elanor Cook came back to JCPenney once again in search of her friend. She apparently felt the need to explain herself and the verdict. When Adrian McManus spotted the smiling Cook coming toward her, she began to walk away down a store aisle. The seventy –nine – year –old Cook began to cry out for understanding. Adrian McManus gave her none. McManus claimed that a JCPenney supervisor asked Cook to leave the store.

    Notice that the one thing that keeps happening here is the spin that they put on information. On the one hand we have Elanor Cook, a good guy who believes Michael was guilty and they are attributing quotes to her that come from Adrian McManus in reality. Then on the other hand Dimond attempts to discredit Elanor Cooks vote of Not Guilty by saying that she was closer to a witness than she should have been. Again that comes directly from McManus, a proven liar and thief.
    Here is the truth of the matter. Elanor Cook’s daughter talked her into making a deal for a book. Originally it was supposed to be about the commeraderie of the jury but then there was a Not Guilty verdict. Somewhere in there her co author (Stacy Brown) and others got in touch with her and informed her that a positive Michael Jackson book would not sell.Then we heard all kinds of things about the jury from Elanor Cook. We heard that they threatened to have her thrown off the jury and said things like “not my Michael”. This was another point of spin. They were still trying to make her the good guy and she was trying to make herself the good guy with the later post trial interviews.And yet if you were to believe Adrian McManus she never should have been on the jury in the first place and lied to get on it. What exactly is the case here? And if you believe Dimond’s profile she only lived in the County for a little over a year, just how close could Adrian McManus and her be? In the case of Ellie Cook I would say they were both liars.

    • nannorris permalink
      July 17, 2012 4:05 pm

      Dont you think that if Adrian Mcmanus actually knew Elllie Cook, she would have told the prosecutors that when she walked in and saw her in the jury box..
      There are way way too many liars to keep track of.
      I am deeply upset after reading the motion you put up , that Melville could have allowed them to bring in the 1108 stuff.
      The Arviso family is completely unbelievable, and yet he let the prosecutors bring in that stuff..
      I would love to know how is justified that…I dont remember him mentioning why at the frozen in time seminar…
      The only thing I can say about Mesereau saying Melville was a very fair judge , is , he must have said it because he won , in spite of the judge favoring the prosecution.
      The 1108 stuff
      letting the tape of Gavin in showing demeanor ….supposedly they arent supposed to take what he is saying for fact…
      Even the misdemeanors at the end of the case are ridiculous to me..
      Prosecutors say the Arviso boys say they were plied with liquor so he could perform a criminal act, Either that or he just gave them liquor?
      If you dont believe them about one thing, why would you believe them about the other.

  11. stacy permalink
    July 17, 2012 11:42 am

    Ray Hultman stated that the reason why he believed MJ was guilty was because of the so-called 365 nights sleepover with Brett Barnes. This was never proven or confirmed. This was just an estimation given by his sister Karlee, which totally contradicts her mother’s testimony, who testified that Brett stayed with the family sometimes and sometimes with Michael. Karlee in my opinion, was probably the most damaging witness. She hurt MJ more than help him.

    • shellywebstere permalink
      July 17, 2012 3:42 pm

      I think you should remember that when Karlee spoke about the 365 nights it was according to her during the Dangerous tour. She said she spent 6 months in Europe and 6 months in South America. In reality they stayed only 3 months in Europe and a month and a half in South America. After Europe MJ went to Japan with the 3T but Barnes wasn’t with them.

  12. stacy permalink
    July 16, 2012 9:31 pm

    MJ was very lucky to have an open minded jury that was willing to put their personal feelings aside and deal with the evidence that was presented to them..If the jury consisted mainly of people like Katrina Carls, Ray Hultman and Ellie cook, he would have gotten convicted on all counts..Ellie Cook was the most close-minded. She tried to sneek in a book to show the jurors that MJ fit the profile of a pedophile. She was also rumored to have written “liars, liars” on her notepad when Brett Barnes and Wade Robson testified.

    • Rodrigo permalink
      July 16, 2012 9:48 pm

      Cook was letting her assumptions and opinions cloud her judgement over wether Michael molested Gavin or not.

      I’ve seen a lot of haters pull that trick, trying to compare Michael’s behaviour with a pedophile’s. But I think I’ll take the word of honest and real psychologists who have closely studied Michael’s real behaviour over the years, and those who have spoken to him in sessions…where they have determined he fits the profile of what can only be dubbed – “Manchild”, not a pedophile.

    • nannorris permalink
      July 16, 2012 10:24 pm

      Actually , I think MJ was very lucky to have so much exculpatory evidence in that case..Ellie Cook in particular was dead set on convicting him of something , even just a misdemeanor , because she had a book deal in the works and she would have made money for herself with a book deal, same with Ray Hultman.
      The third woman who initially was supposedly voting guilty was a person recently a citizen and may have been married to someone in local media , although I am not sure of that.
      What I am sure of is , these people with book deals, could not even make a case for hanging the jury , when faced with the evidence in the case..
      We all know Ellie Cook told Larry KIng her book was supposed to be about her interaction with other jurors., not MJ being guilty of anything ..She was clear about that on his show and other shows….
      I think the fact these 2 did a complete turnaround , shows what offers of money can do to a person..Just more of the same for MJ..

    • lynande51 permalink*
      July 17, 2012 10:56 am

      Ellie Cook was personal friends with Adrian McManus, or so Diane Dimond says in her book, in contrast to what she says in an article that she wrote prior to the vierdicts coming in.In The article she had only purchased some perfume from Adrian at JC Penneys. In the book they were friends and Ellie comforted her after her testimony. If that was truly the case she never sould have been allowed on that jury. In the end she still couldn’t find Mj guilty. So there is another example of the bias that she had against MJ. Do not ever let her say that she was objective because she was just the mouthpiece for the prosecution.
      I believe it was her that once implied that it was the Defense or Michael himself that leaked the Grand Jury transcripts. If he had done that why weren’t the ones that were in his favor leaked and not the ones that favored the prosecution and the Arvizos? She is a liar from the word go.
      In her defense in the case where MJ sued Hard Copy, Paramount Pictures, Victor Gutierrez she even tried to defend putting him on air by saying he had been a reliable source for her in the past because he was right about MJ and Lisa Marie getting a divorce (the divorce rate in the US is 50% or in other words he had a fifty fifty chance of being right if he just guessed).That should have been marked as perjury right there because MJ and Lisa Marie did not get divorce until 2 years after she out him on the air withhis story about a video tape. Then Sneddon steps in to save her butt by submittin a declaration for her in the case.
      By the way the reason that she left Hard Copy was because she was fired for her bying slanderous stories this one in particular. My question is why does anyone give her a forum anymore?

  13. June 27, 2012 4:27 pm

    a friend asked me yesterday why i got upset when they compared MJ to Sandusky . Maybe he did it she said……. i just walked a way after telling her even the jury laughed at the testimonies. i just don’t get why people can’t see what a shame all accusers were……

  14. BlueLotus permalink
    June 25, 2012 11:48 am

    I read the link to Rio Jackson’s testimony…it had some from his sister and mom and Somebody Lamere. I could not believe that long before Michael so called “abandoned” these leeches Star and Gavin…they were calling Michael a “fucking bastard” and “little retard…I don’t like him” right behind his back! God, what parasites to keep at ur home…they were damaging his house and calling him names.

    And such was the control of Michael’s managers…that his own cousin was not allowed at the ranch ‘coz she had used a cart meant for the guests without permission!

    It was like having satan into your house…Michael paid the price! :-/

  15. June 24, 2012 11:19 pm

    When I was the age of the Arvizo kids, I never dreamed of calling anyone a father figure, nor would I ever have referred to my dad as my biological father. Nor would I have been so quick to consider a replacement for my real dad even if he was flawed.

    • lynande51 permalink*
      June 25, 2012 1:02 am

      You know in all that happened with the Arvizo family I think the one that I feel the most sorry for is David. He was the one with Gavin at the hospital and he credited Michael when he said that it was Michael that taught him how to be around Gavin when he was sick. Not to treat him like he was sick but like he was going to get better. People don’t realize just how important those positive thoughts are for someone going through chemothreapy.
      Janet’s greed destroyed a lot of lives not just hers and her childrens. They have another entire family with grandparents and uncles, aunts and cousins that they stopped beingin touch with to satisfy that woman.

    • nannorris permalink
      June 25, 2012 9:50 am

      Well ,you have an middleaged man who calls a teenage boy several times ,stays in touch, invites him to his house and even goes across country to visit with the teenage boy!!!!..Mom is a mess and Dad is out of the picture, …..sound like someone is being groomed ? nope , because I am talking about the prosecutor Ron Zonen.LOL.
      Should we all refer to his friendship/mentoring of this troubled kid as a “relationship”, like they were doing to MJ?
      He is stuck with this kid now as a father figure, which is what they were trying to do to MJ.
      And even if Zonen wanted to unload this kid,he cant , his reputation is on the line..
      He has to believe in this kids story or pretend to , or it will look like they proceeded with a case that had no merit , which is what they really did…
      MJ was trying to help this kid but distance himself because he sensed they were bad news..
      If the kids are encouraged to stay away from their father, it is because the father knew what Janet was up to,imo..
      This was encouraged by the prosecutors also because they wanted to bag MJ..

    • June 25, 2012 12:48 pm

      @nannorris

      LOLLL, that Ron Zonen thing was HILARIOUS.

      And Kris, i completely agree with you. Of everything the Arvizos said, it’s the fact that they thought Jackson was their father that weirds me out the most-especially when they had not only a biological father, but a stepfather as well.

    • June 25, 2012 5:26 pm

      @lynande51 I agree. His side of the story disappeared in favor of the “official” version. After his kids and wife painted him as an nonredeemable monster, he had no recourse but to quietly leave the scene. @nannorris–re. Zonen, those are my thoughts exactly. He and the Arvizos are stuck with each other and they deserve it.

  16. nannorris permalink
    June 23, 2012 12:53 pm

    1 Q. Until you realized you were not going to be
    2 part of Michael Jackson’s family, you never made any
    3 allegation of child molestation, correct.
    4 A. I didn’t want to be part of his family. I
    5 just saw him as a father figure.
    6 Q. Until you realized Michael Jackson was not
    7 going to meet you in Brazil, you never made any
    8 allegation of child molestation, right.
    9 A. I didn’t even really want to go to Brazil.
    10 Q. Until you left Neverland for the last time,
    11 you never made any allegation of child molestation,
    12 correct.
    13 A. I didn’t tell anyone until I left for the
    14 last time, correct.
    15 Q. And never called the police until after
    16 you’d seen two lawyers, right.
    17 MR. SNEDDON: Object as argumentative, Your
    18 Honor.
    19 THE COURT: Overruled.
    20 THE WITNESS: Yes, it wasn’t until I saw two
    21 lawyers until I told the police what really
    22 happened.

    If any one had actually been molested, dont you think you would address that part of the question, and not the part about wanting to be part of Jacksons family..He is addressing the true part.The part that really bothered him.

    ———–
    4 Q. At the time when Dieter went over those
    5 questions with you, did you think Michael Jackson
    6 had abandoned you as a father figure.
    7 A. No. Not then.
    8 Q. Okay.
    ———-
    Again he admits he considered MJ a father figure who abandoned him.I know in Ron Zonens closing argument he claims Gavin was in love with Mj and would do anything for him…but what part of this testimony ,could give anyone the impression this kid was being groomed for sex,it is absurd.
    Instead he talks about Mj being a father figure , teacher , mentor, much like every other child that came in contact with him did AND he is already living at Jay Jacksons apt.!!
    —————–
    16 Q. Do you recall stealing a $1,000 laminated

    17 bill from Michael’s room.

    18 A. A thousand dollar bill.

    19 Q. That was laminated.

    20 A. Do they make thousand-dollar bills.

    21 Q. Did you ever steal one.

    22 A. No.

    —————–

    if you werent a thief, wouldnt a person adamantly say they would never steal anything?? instead of questioning if they make thousand dollar bills..??

    the answer should be ” I dont steal from people”

    I

    Good Lord, talk about the price of fame.
    There is no one else on the planet , that this case would have or could have gone forward with, other then Jackson.
    These prosecutors should feel like the biggest boobs on the planet._
    Thank you again David for this time consuming work..
    This is very important because it shows the real motivation behind these accusations.

    • sanemjfan permalink
      June 24, 2012 4:06 pm

      @Nan
      Another great observation! I’ll add it to the post and give you credit!

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