March 30th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Cynthia Bell (Cross Examination), Dr. Stan Katz, William Dickerman, & Jeff Klapakis (Direct & Cross Examination), Part 2 of 4
In this excerpt, Mesereau questioned Dr. Katz about his experience in civil lawsuits from alleged victims of child abuse, of which he has been involved in thousands, including many that targeted the Catholic Church.
19 Q. Okay. Now, you’re aware that — excuse me,
20 let me rephrase that.
21 You’ve been involved in your career in a
22 number of lawsuits involving allegations of child
23 abuse, correct?
24 A. That’s correct.
25 Q. How many lawsuits involving allegations of
26 child abuse do you think you’ve been involved in as
27 a professional psychologist?
28 A. In all venues? Do you mean family law? 4262
2 Q. Sure.
3 A. Dependency?
4 Q. Sure.
5 A. A couple thousand maybe.
6 Q. And have you been involved as a professional
7 psychologist in any civil lawsuits involving
8 allegations of child abuse where people wanted
9 monetary damages?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. And were they primarily in Los
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Are you aware that if a child is abused or
15 claims they were abused they have until the age of
16 approximately 20 to file a lawsuit?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you’re aware that, what is called a
19 statute of limitations, meaning when the time period
20 begins to commence —
21 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as exceeding
22 the witness’s expertise.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had any
25 experience, Dr. Katz, in the relationship between
26 criminal proceedings and civil proceedings when it
27 comes to allegations of child abuse?
28 A. Well, I’m not sure how to answer that, 4263
1 except to say that I’m currently working a number of
2 civil cases regarding victims of the Catholic
3 church, alleged victims of the Catholic church.
4 Those cases, some may end up being criminal, some
5 may be civil, depending on the statute of
6 limitations, as you pointed out.
7 Q. Have some of them concerned criminal
9 A. My work does not concern criminal
10 proceedings with those cases.
11 Q. Have you ever testified in a criminal case
12 before today?
13 A. Yes, I have.
14 Q. How many criminal cases have you testified
15 in before today?
16 A. Less than half a dozen.
17 Q. Were they primarily in Los Angeles?
18 A. Yes, they were.
19 Q. In any of those criminal cases, were you
20 also involved in a parallel civil proceeding?
21 A. No.
22 Q. In any of those criminal cases, were you
23 involved in a parallel divorce proceeding?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, a divorce proceeding is a civil
26 proceeding, correct?
27 A. Yes, it is.
28 Q. And what you’re saying is that you were 4264
1 involved as a professional psychologist in both a
2 civil divorce proceeding and a parallel criminal
3 proceeding involving the same parties and issues,
5 A. “Parallel” is the problem. Do you mean
6 simultaneously, or one after the other? Sometimes
7 I’ve worked a family law case and then was called
8 into criminal court on the same case six months, a
9 year later.
10 Q. Okay. And it’s your understanding that if
11 you have a conviction in a criminal case, you’ll
12 automatically win the civil case?
13 MR. ZONEN: I will object. Exceeding the
14 scope of his expertise.
15 MR. MESEREAU: I didn’t finish my question.
16 MR. ZONEN: Well, we know what it is.
17 THE COURT: You may finish the question.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Given your experience in
19 the criminal courts and in parallel proceedings in
20 the civil courts where the same parties are
21 involved —
22 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as to parallel
23 proceedings in a civil court, as to whether it’s a
24 civil or a family law court.
25 THE COURT: He hasn’t finished his question.
26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Given your experience,
27 Dr. Katz, in criminal actions involving allegations
28 of child abuse and parallel civil actions involving 4265
1 allegations of child abuse where the same parties
2 are involved, you’re aware that if there is a
3 criminal conviction, one would automatically win a
4 civil suit for damages, true?
5 MR. ZONEN: Objection; exceeds the scope of
6 his expertise.
7 THE COURT: Sustained.
Here’s a very interesting and relevant piece of testimony: Mesereau questioned Dr. Katz about books and articles that he had written over the years about false allegations of child abuse. For example, in 1992 he wrote a book titled “The Codependency Conspiracy”, in which he stated that as many as 40% of child abuse allegations are false, and in 1982 he wrote an article titled “Stop the Witch Hunt for Child Molesters”, in which he argued that there was an epidemic of false child abuse allegations:
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: The prosecutor asked you
9 about your experience in the area of child abuse,
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. You have published articles in that field,
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know approximately how many articles
16 you have published in that field?
17 A. Well, I think you’re talking about —
18 professional articles, I think there’s only one or
19 two. If you’re talking about books, there’s three
20 books. And there’s probably a number of interviews
21 or articles, some of which may be editorials. So
22 I’m not sure how to answer the question. But
23 certainly a number of publications.
24 Q. Let’s just take articles —
25 A. Okay.
26 Q. — that don’t reach the form of a book. How
27 many articles do you think you’ve published in the
28 area of child abuse? 4266
1 A. Well, I’m not sure. Maybe three or four.
2 Q. And you’ve published in the Los Angeles
3 Times, correct?
4 A. As far as I know, the New York Times, Los
5 Angeles Times, they syndicate out to other
6 newspapers, so I know some of the articles I wrote
7 were way beyond; you know, in other markets also.
8 Q. You published an article called “Stop the
9 Witch Hunt For Child Molesters,” correct?
10 A. That’s correct.
11 Q. In that article you dealt with your concern
12 about false allegations of child molestation,
14 A. Absolutely.
15 Q. You also published a book called “The
16 Codependency Conspiracy,” correct?
17 A. That’s correct.
18 Q. And you published it with a woman named
19 Amiee Liu, correct?
20 A. That’s correct.
21 Q. And in that book, you talked about false
22 allegations of child molestation, true?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You said that lawyers have told you as many
25 as 40 percent of child molestation allegations are
26 false, correct?
27 A. I’m not sure what context you’re talking
28 about, but certainly, in certain venues, that is 4267
2 Q. You said that lawyers charged with turning
3 these allegations into convictions estimate that as
4 many as 40 percent of the accusations are
5 insubstantive, correct?
6 A. I assume you’re reading from my book.
7 Q. I am.
8 A. And I’m not sure what precedes it. But if I
9 said it in my book, I will stand by it, that’s true.
10 Q. You said, “Nowhere is our lack of
11 objectivity more evident than in our reactions to
12 reports of child molestation,” right?
13 A. That’s correct.
14 Q. You said, “The nation’s courtrooms are
15 inundated with new allegations of abuse every day,”
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You said, “But many of the lawyers who are
19 charged with turning these allegations into
20 convictions estimate that as many as 40 percent of
21 the accusations are insubstantive,” true?
22 A. Well, it’s true. I’d have to give a
23 context, but it’s certainly true. It may be even
24 higher than that in some cases, in some venues.
25 Q. And what venues were you talking about?
26 A. Particularly family law and divorce cases,
27 high-conflict divorce cases, where allegations are
28 made that one parent sexually molested a very young 4268
1 child under the age of usually four.
Download this PDF file to read the excerpt from Dr. Katz’s book that Mesereau just quoted from: Dr. Stan Katz’s chapter on false child molestation claims from his book The Codependency Conspiracy
And here is the article “Stop The Witch Hunt For Child Molesters”, which was published in the New York Times on June , 1984: stop the witch hunt
Next, Mesereau questioned Dr. Katz about his involvement in the infamous McMartin Preschool trial, which is one of the best examples of the false child molestation witch hunts that Dr. Katz described in his book! It’s ironic because he was the Director of Training at the agency that interviewed all of the so-called “victims” in that case! In fact, he “assessed” the children who claimed to be abused at that school. Personally, I would be embarrassed to have this on my professional resume!
2 Q. When you were interviewing the Arvizos, did
3 you do any background check into their involvement
4 in any other litigation?
5 A. I did not.
6 Q. Did you ever check into any allegations of
7 domestic violence in the Arvizo family?
8 A. I didn’t check into any of these
9 allegations. I did not investigate any of these
10 allegations other than — excuse me, other than to
11 interview the parties. So I did not do any
12 investigation of any allegations.
13 Q. In your book, “The Codependency Conspiracy,”
14 you talked about a witch hunt mentality with respect
15 to false allegations of child abuse, true?
16 A. That’s true.
17 Q. And you didn’t just talk about divorce
18 cases, you talked about the McMartin Preschool case
19 in Manhattan Beach, California, true?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. And you mentioned that in the context of
22 false allegations of child molestation in a criminal
23 courtroom, true?
24 A. Well, I’m not sure if I said that in the
25 book or not. I didn’t memorize it. But I was
26 talking about the McMartin case, which ended up
27 being not only in the criminal court, it was in
28 dependency court because there were children of the 4269
1 teachers who were involved in dependency court, and
2 I think there were civil suits also.
3 Q. Were you involved in that case in any
4 professional way?
5 A. Yes, I was.
6 Q. How were you involved?
7 A. I was the director of training and
8 professional education at the Children’s Institute
9 International, and that’s the agency that initially
10 interviewed all the McMartin children.
11 Q. And were you involved in that case for a
12 number of years?
13 A. Well, my involvement was that I was director
14 of the program. And Kee McFarland, who was the
15 woman who interviewed the children, actually worked
16 under me. But I was not — I did not directly
17 interview the children’s parents.
18 I did interview — my involvement with the
19 McMartin case was, I did do assessments. I was
20 asked by the Department of Children & Family
21 Services to assess the children of the alleged
22 perpetrators to see if they had been molested.
23 Other than that, I had very little involvement
24 directly with the case.
25 Q. Is it your understanding that that was
26 perhaps the longest and largest criminal case in the
27 history of Los Angeles County?
28 A. I think it was. 4270
1 Q. Going further into your book, you discuss
2 cases where you’ve had false allegations of
3 molestation where no one ever turned up any physical
4 evidence to support the molestation, correct?
5 A. That’s correct.
6 Q. And you talk about situations where you
7 think children, for whatever reason, believed they
8 were abused, but really aren’t or haven’t been,
10 A. I talk about young children under the age of
11 four who believe they were molested, yes.
12 Q. And in your opinion, they had not been,
14 A. That’s correct.
15 Q. You discuss situations where therapists have
16 taught children that they were traumatized when, in
17 fact, they were not, correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And you talk about situations where, despite
20 what therapists have said about the existence of
21 molestation, courts have gone against them, true?
22 A. I’m sorry, where therapists have said they
23 believed children were molested and the courts have
24 not ruled —
25 Q. Yes.
26 A. Yes. Yes.
27 Q. And has that been your experience as well,
28 as an expert? 4271
1 A. My experience has been that there are people
2 who are falsely accused and who get convicted, and
3 there are people who are falsely accused that get
4 acquitted, and there are people who get acquitted
5 who did the deed. So I’ve had all that experience.
6 Q. You talked about children in abuse cases who
7 are often scarred for life, not by the abuse,
8 because it didn’t occur, they’re scarred by what you
9 call the recovery process, true?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what you were saying was, in situations
12 where there has been no abuse, but a child is
13 convinced that there has been and is put through a
14 process of therapy to deal with the abuse that never
15 happened, they can be hurt, true?
16 A. That’s correct.
17 Q. You talk about situations where children can
18 have thoughts essentially given to them by parents
19 or therapists that convince them they’ve been abused
20 when there is no abuse, right?
21 A. Yes. But I was talking about young children
22 under the age of four. Pre-verbal children.
23 Q. You didn’t limit it to that in your book,
24 did you?
25 A. I’m not sure what you’re reading, exactly,
26 from, but I’m certainly talking about pre-verbal
27 children. And I think there’s a — a comment made
28 about young children under the age of five or so. 4272
1 Q. Do you know where the comment is?
2 A. I haven’t looked at the book in a long time,
3 but —
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. I’ll have to look at it later.
6 Q. Okay. You talked about a number of
7 situations where parents consistently told their
8 children they’ve been abused, and the children
9 believed it, and in your opinion there had been no
10 abuse at all, right?
11 A. And that specifically is regarding young
12 children. We’re talking about children under the
13 age of five years.
Here is a post that was written about Dr. Katz on our sister blog, Vindicate MJ, which details his involvement in the infamous McMartin preschool trial, and also analyzes his 2005 testimony:
And here’s an excerpt from an interview with one of the children who was coerced into making false child abuse claims during the McMartin preschool case; in 2005, he completely recanted all of his accusations!
McMartin Pre-Schooler: ‘I Lied’
My mother divorced my father when I was 2 and she met my stepfather, who was a police officer in Manhattan Beach. They had five children after me. In addition, my stepfather has three older children. In the combined family, I’m the only one of the nine children he didn’t father. I always remember wanting him to love me. I was always trying excessively hard to please him. I would do anything for him.
My stepbrothers and stepsisters and a half-brother and half-sister went to McMartin. So did I. I only remember being happy there. I never had any bad feelings about the school—no bad auras or vibes or anything. Even to this day, talking about it or seeing pictures or artwork that I did at McMartin never brings any bad feelings. All my memories are positive. The thing I remember about the case was how it took over the whole city and consumed our whole family. My parents would ask questions: “Did the teachers ever do things to you?” They talked about Ray Buckey, whom I had never met. I don’t even have any recollection of him attending the school when I was going there.
The first time I went to CII [Children’s Institute International, now known as Children’s Institute, Inc., a respected century-old L.A. County child welfare organization where approximately 400 former McMartin children were interviewed and given genital exams, and where many were diagnosed as abuse victims], we drove there, our whole family. I remember waiting … for hours while my brothers and sisters were being interviewed. I don’t remember how many days or if it was just one day, but my memory tells me it was weeks, it seemed so long. It was an ordeal. I remember thinking to myself, “I’m not going to get out of here unless I tell them what they want to hear.”
We were examined by a doctor. I took my clothes off and lay down on the table. They checked my butt, my penis. There was a room with a lot of toys and stuffed animals and dolls. The dolls were pasty white and had hair where the private parts were. They wanted us to take off their clothes. It was just really weird.
I remember them asking extremely uncomfortable questions about whether Ray touched me and about all the teachers and what they did—and I remember telling them nothing happened to me. I remember them almost giggling and laughing, saying, “Oh, we know these things happened to you. Why don’t you just go ahead and tell us? Use these dolls if you’re scared.”
Anytime I would give them an answer that they didn’t like, they would ask again and encourage me to give them the answer they were looking for. It was really obvious what they wanted. I know the types of language they used on me: things like I was smart, or I could help the other kids who were scared.
I felt uncomfortable and a little ashamed that I was being dishonest. But at the same time, being the type of person I was, whatever my parents wanted me to do, I would do. And I thought they wanted me to help protect my little brother and sister who went to McMartin.
Next, Dr. Katz describes his awareness of the motivations for false child abuse claims, and some of the symptoms that real victims of child abuse display:
14 Q. You are aware, that there can be all kinds
15 of motivations for false claims of molestation,
17 A. Certainly there’s a possibility of all kinds
18 of claims and reasons.
19 Q. You’re aware that alleged victims of
20 molestation often sue for millions of dollars in
21 civil court, correct?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. You talked about the reactions of victims of
24 child sexual abuse, correct, in your book?
25 A. If you say so. I don’t remember exactly
26 what I talked about in that book, but —
27 Q. Well, you essentially said there can be all
28 sorts of varying reactions, assuming it really 4273
1 occurred, right?
2 A. I suppose, yes.
3 Q. Well, you said that some experience physical
4 or emotional trauma directly related to molestation,
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. And some exhibit none of those symptoms,
9 A. I need to back up. You’re reading
10 something. Are you talking about victims who have
11 been abused?
12 Q. Yes. I’m limiting this question to people
13 who actually have been abused, not the people you
14 discussed who were the victims of false accusations.
16 A. Thank you.
17 Q. With limiting my question to people who have
18 actually been abused, you indicated some
19 experience — appear to experience no real change in
20 their behavior, correct? They have no nightmares,
21 they have no —
22 A. You’re talking here about —
23 Q. Let me just finish the question, if I can.
24 If I can.
25 A. Sorry. Excuse me.
26 Q. Okay. You discussed the fact that, in your
27 opinion, victims of sexual abuse generally fit into
28 one of three categories, true? Do you remember 4274
1 that? I could show you the book if you’d like to
2 take a look at it.
3 A. It would be helpful, since I wrote it about
4 12 years ago. It would certainly refresh my memory.
5 I could have brought a copy, but —
6 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to
9 look at your book?
10 A. Well, I did for about three seconds.
11 Q. And did you have a chance to look at the
12 three categories you identified in your book with
13 regarding what a real victim of child sexual abuse
14 might show?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Some will have nightmares, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Some will have no nightmares, right?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Some will act out their version of the
21 abuse, correct?
22 A. Some act out sexually, yes.
23 Q. And some will not act out sexually at all,
25 A. Correct.
26 Q. Some will suddenly become aggressive, right?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And some will not be aggressive at all, 4275
2 A. Some will be withdrawn, yes.
3 Q. Some will be depressed, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And some won’t be depressed at all, right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Some will demonstrate an aversion to their
8 own body, right?
9 A. Some have problems with body image and
10 aversion to any of their sexual organs, yes.
11 Q. And some don’t have that at all, correct?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. And you would agree that it’s difficult —
14 excuse me, let me rephrase that.
15 In this area, it can be difficult to
16 determine if certain characteristics really relate
17 to sexual abuse or not, correct?
18 A. That’s correct.
19 Q. If you are examining a child, for example,
20 where there’s an allegation of abuse, and you learn,
21 through whatever form, that the child is exhibiting
22 aggressive behavior, it’s difficult to know if that
23 aggressive behavior is really the result of actual
24 sexual abuse, right?
25 A. That’s correct.
26 Q. And in your evaluation of a potential victim
27 in a situation like this, one of the things you’d
28 want to know would be, did that child exhibit 4276
1 aggressive behavior before the alleged abuse
2 occurred, correct?
3 A. Well, I have to answer that by saying, if I
4 was evaluating forensically this case, I would want
5 to know a great deal about this family, about the
6 alleged perpetrator, about all the data,
7 multi-source data I could get.
8 If I was just interviewing the children to
9 hear what they had to say so that I could make a
10 determination whether or not I’d be obligated to
11 make a report, it would be a different issue.
12 Q. Right.
13 A. I’d be the gatekeeper, the beginning of the
14 process, if I felt there was reason to make a
15 report, and then further investigation/evaluation
16 would have to be conducted by professionals.
17 Q. And the quantity of investigation you just
18 articulated which you state would be necessary to
19 really determine if sexual abuse occurred you didn’t
20 do in this case, right?
21 A. That’s correct.
22 Q. Okay. In your book, you talk about the
23 situation where abuse is intertwined with other
24 serious family or psychological problems, correct?
25 A. Are you talking about interfamilial,
26 within-the-family abuse?
27 Q. Yes.
28 A. I think that’s where you’re going with that. 4277
2 Q. And what you said was evaluating and
3 understanding real sexual abuse is made more
4 difficult if the family you’re investigating has
5 other serious family or psychological problems,
7 A. I’m not sure of the context there, Mr.
8 Mesereau, because when I — I think I was talking
9 about sexual abuse within a family, where the
10 alleged perpetrator is a member of the family, you
11 have complications from a number of variables.
Mesereau goes on to list some hypothetical scenarios of child abuse perpetrators. Try to take a wild guess about the identity of the family that inspired the hypothetical example that he used!
12 Q. Well, wouldn’t you — excuse me, let me
13 rephrase it.
14 Let’s suppose the alleged perpetrator is
15 outside the family, right? And let’s assume,
16 because we’re just dealing with a hypothetical, that
17 the family itself is characterized by serious
18 emotional and psychological problems dealing with
19 domestic violence, divorce, allegations within the
20 family of molestation, alleged acts, multiple acts,
21 of violence going over years, alleged — unusual
22 actions to obtain money so the family can survive, a
23 lot of emotional conflict between parents.
24 You would agree that all of those issues
25 could complicate the question of whether or not a
26 child in that family was truly abused by someone
27 else? Could complicate it?
28 A. It’s possible. 4278
1 Q. If you had — excuse me. If, during the
2 course of your investigation as a professional
3 psychologist and expert in this area, you discover
4 that within the family unit, there have, over the
5 years, been various allegations of molestation
6 within the family unit, that would complicate your
7 ability to evaluate whether or not someone had been
8 molested by a third party, true?
9 A. Well, I don’t know if it would complicate
10 it. It would certainly be data I would want to look
12 THE COURT: Counsel, just a moment.
13 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.
14 (Brief interruption.)
15 THE REPORTER: Thank you, Judge.
16 THE COURT: Sorry, Counsel.
17 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.
18 Q. You indicated in your book, Dr. Katz, and we
19 were alluding to this before, that if abuse is
20 intertwined with other serious family or
21 psychological problems, you need to focus on these
22 problems separately in treatment, correct?
23 A. That makes perfect sense to me. I’m not
24 sure I wrote exactly that, or said that, but that
25 makes sense.
26 Q. I can show you the paragraph.
27 A. Well, I believe you.
28 Q. Okay. And what you said was, you recognize 4279
1 that different problems may have little to do with
2 each other, or may have a lot to do with each other,
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And you say the abuse that’s claimed may be
6 very insignificant in a situation where you discover
7 serious psychological and family problems within the
8 family unit, true? May be.
9 A. I’m not sure. The first part of the
10 question I missed. You said abuse may be
11 inconsequence —
12 Q. Yeah. You indicated that the abuse
13 suffered —
14 A. Are you quoting? Because if you quote, then
15 it’s easier for me to refer to. I’m not sure if
16 you’re paraphrasing or interpreting.
17 Q. Let me just read you a paragraph.
18 A. Thank you.
19 Q. Okay. “If the conflict you feel about your
20 abuse is intertwined with other serious family or
21 psychological problems, you need to focus on these
22 problems separately in treatment, recognizing that
23 the different problems may have little to do with
24 each other, and that the abuse you suffered may have
25 been relatively insignificant.”
26 Do you remember reading that?
27 A. Writing it.
28 Q. Excuse me, writing it. 4280
1 A. I do remember writing it, yes.
2 Q. Okay. Okay. Correct me if I’m wrong, you
3 were suggesting that, in a situation where you have
4 an allegation of abuse that sounds quite serious, if
5 you, as a therapist, start to investigate the
6 domestic situation in that family, and you, as a
7 therapist, find all sorts of other psychological
8 problems that may not be related to the abuse, there
9 are situations where, once you investigate those
10 problems and treat those problems, the actual claim
11 of abuse may turn out to have been exaggerated,
13 A. I think that totally misinterprets what I
14 was saying.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. What I was saying is that people have a
17 myriad of complaints in their life, and that many
18 adults wish to connect their current problems to a
19 past event.
20 So, for example, a 40-year-old woman who
21 can’t find a relationship, a healthy relationship,
22 says she was molested at age five and that’s why she
23 can’t find a healthy relationship today, that she
24 needs to look at what other things are stopping her
25 and preventing her from having a healthy
26 relationship today.
27 I think that was directed at that kind of
28 person, not directed at a therapist and how to 4281
1 evaluate or treat an alleged allegation of sexual
3 Q. Well, but you were talking about treating
4 sexual abuse when you wrote that paragraph, true?
5 A. I think I was talking about what I just
6 said; that people like to blame lots of problems on
7 traumatic events that happened in their lives. And
8 they need to sort out that some of these events have
9 nothing to do with actually what they’ve become or
10 the problems they have.
11 Q. In fact, in many ways, the book that you
12 wrote called “The Codependency Conspiracy” was a
13 form of self-help book, correct?
14 A. It is a self-help book.
15 Q. And you talk about people who are perpetual
16 victims, correct?
17 A. That’s correct.
18 Q. And you basically talk about how, as they
19 view themselves as a perpetual victim, they are
20 essentially saying that they are powerless over
21 their problems and don’t have to take responsibility
22 for them, right?
23 A. That’s correct.
24 Q. And you basically were saying that’s not the
25 right way to live your life, right?
26 A. What I was saying, it’s a debilitating and
27 immobilizing way to live.
28 Q. Essentially you said that people who are 4282
1 perpetual victims are not really —
2 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as exceeding
3 the scope of the direct examination.
4 THE COURT: That’s sustained.
5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you remember, you wrote
6 the following: “I do not think that a parent whose
7 hand lingers momentarily while diapering his or her
8 child belongs in the same category with convicted
9 child pornographers or pedophiles, yet many
10 therapists and self-help groups lump the victims of
11 these different perpetrators together and treat them
12 all as if they’ve been equally traumatized”?
13 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as exceeding the
14 scope of direct examination.
15 THE COURT: Sustained.
Next, Mesereau questioned Dr. Katz about his own personal experiences with alleged victims who have made false claims, and Zonen began to nitpick and whine about the fact that Mesereau used the word “prosecutors” instead of “lawyers” when quoting from Katz’s book; Zonen insinuated that Mesereau was being dishonest and trying to imply that all prosecutors are eager to maliciously try and convict innocent people:
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You indicated in response
17 to the prosecutor’s questions that you had worked on
18 a panel of psychologists, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And was that with dependency court?
21 A. First in dependency court and then in family
23 Q. Okay. Now, when you’re on a panel of
24 psychologists in dependency court, you are routinely
25 appointed to handle a dependency court case,
27 A. Correct.
28 Q. And you’re paid by the county, right? 4283
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And how long did you say that you had done
4 A. Over ten years.
5 Q. Okay. So over ten years you were on that
6 dependency court panel, you never knew when you’d be
7 called to work on a dependency court case, right?
8 A. I didn’t know exactly, that’s correct.
9 Q. Okay. Now, were you doing that at the
10 Edelman Courthouse on the 10 freeway?
11 A. I started doing it at the old courthouse at
12 first, I think criminal, and then it was over on
13 Sixth Street before the Edelman Courthouse.
14 Q. Okay. Now, would you agree that in
15 dependency court, you often find false claims of
17 A. Who’s “you”?
18 Q. Anybody.
19 A. Well, are you talking about did the judges
20 find it? Did I find it? Who’s who?
21 Q. Well, when you wrote in your book that,
22 “Lawyers who prosecute molestation cases tell us
23 that approximately 40 percent may be false,” were
24 you referring to dependency court?
25 A. Well, I’m not exactly sure which lawyers
26 you’re referring to or I was referring to at this
27 point, but in general, the 40 percent figure comes
28 out of research on mostly young children, preschool 4284
1 kinds of cases, family law cases.
2 It does not come out of the research on
3 children who were allegedly molested by a — by
4 someone outside the family, and it doesn’t come out
5 of research about children over the age of
6 approximately five or six.
7 Q. Have you done research in that area?
8 A. Just clinical experience.
9 Q. Okay. Have you had experience with false
10 claims of molestation involving children over six?
11 A. Well, when you say “experience,” have I
12 evaluated cases where someone thought the claims
13 were false?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Or where the judge determined they were
16 false? Which would you like?
17 Q. Let’s start with the first example.
18 A. Well, in every case there’s two sides.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. So there’s always someone who doesn’t
21 believe and someone who does believe. So I’ve been
22 involved with many of those cases, in criminal and
23 family law and in civil cases. I have been involved
24 in cases where people were acquitted in a criminal,
25 and they were convicted. And I’ve been involved in
26 cases where monetary damages were paid to victims
27 and where no monetary damages were paid to victims,
28 and family law cases where the judge made a finding 4285
1 that molestation did not occur, or the judge made a
2 finding that there was inappropriate touching,
3 fondling, some kind of sexual abuse.
4 Q. When you wrote in your book that 40 percent
5 figure, saying prosecutors had told you that 40
6 percent of the accusations are insubstantive, you
7 never limited it in the book to children who are six
8 or younger, did you?
9 A. I don’t think so. I have to look at the
10 source data. But it’s in the back.
11 MR. ZONEN: Could I see the book, please?
12 MR. MESEREAU: I can get you a copy.
13 THE WITNESS: It’s available at amazon.com.
15 MR. ZONEN: Doesn’t say “prosecutors.”
16 MR. MESEREAU: It says, “Lawyers who are
17 charged with turning these allegations into
19 MR. ZONEN: Judge, I’m going to object as
20 misstating —
21 MR. MESEREAU: Your Honor, I’ll read it, if
22 the Court would like.
23 MR. ZONEN: Well, I’m concerned about the
24 prior question asked. He used the word
26 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll restate it. I’ll
27 restate the question.
28 Q. Dr. Katz? 4286
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You know that these prosecutors are all
3 lawyers, don’t you?
4 MR. ZONEN: Which prosecutors is he
5 referring to? Objection. Vague; argumentative.
6 THE WITNESS: I have —
7 MR. ZONEN: There’s an objection.
8 MR. MESEREAU: I’ll withdraw the question.
In this excerpt, Mesereau questioned Dr. Katz about his statement in his book that PROSECUTORS told Dr. Katz that 40% of child abuse cases are false, and this was an attempt to show that prosecutors, whose job it is to get convictions, will maliciously prosecute defendants despite knowing of their complete innocence, as they are currently doing in this case:
9 Q. Dr. Katz, have you met with any of these
10 prosecutors at any time?
11 A. Yes, I have.
12 Q. When did you last meet with any of these
14 A. I met with Mr. Zonen, yes, sir.
15 Q. Are you aware that he is a lawyer?
16 A. I’m aware that he is lawyer.
17 Q. Are you aware that he’s a lawyer paid by the
19 A. I’m not sure who he’s paid by, but I assume
20 he’s paid by the county or someone.
21 Q. Have you ever met Mr. Sneddon?
22 A. I have.
23 Q. Are you aware that he’s a lawyer?
24 A. I assume he’s a lawyer if he’s in his
26 Q. Are you aware that he’s a lawyer paid by the
28 A. I assume he’s paid by the county. 4287
1 Q. And have you met Mr. Auchincloss, who’s
2 directly to my left?
3 A. Yes, I have.
4 Q. Are you aware that he’s a lawyer?
5 A. Yes, I’m aware that he’s a lawyer.
6 Q. Are you aware that he’s a lawyer paid by the
8 A. Paid by the government.
9 Q. Are you aware their jobs as prosecutors are
10 to seek convictions?
11 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as
13 THE COURT: Sustained.
14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: When you said in your
15 book, you referred to lawyers who are charged with
16 turning these allegations into convictions, you were
17 referring to prosecutors?
18 A. Well, I actually was referring to cases that
19 I already talked about, the young children,
20 preschool cases, the family law cases —
21 Q. You were —
22 MR. ZONEN: The witness ought to be allowed
23 to answer the question.
24 MR. MESEREAU: Sure. Sure.
25 Q. I apologize. Go ahead.
26 A. Family law cases where either they were
27 trying to get some kind of finding in court, sustain
28 a petition or criminal conviction, yes. 4288
1 Q. Dr. Katz, you know that you can’t convict
2 anyone of anything in a family law court, right?
3 A. No, but you can make a finding.
4 Q. But you don’t convict in family law court,
6 MR. ZONEN: Objection; argumentative.
7 THE COURT: Sustained.
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Based on your experience,
9 the only place you get convictions is criminal
10 courts, right?
11 MR. ZONEN: Objection. Argumentative; and
12 beyond his scope of expertise.
13 THE COURT: Sustained on argumentative.
14 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.
15 Q. Now, Dr. Katz, you said that 30 percent of
16 your work is currently involved with television; is
17 that right?
18 A. Approximately 30 to 40 percent, yes.
Dr. Katz goes on to explain his interviews and interactions with the Arvizo family, and he once again reiterated that he believed that Feldman was representing the Arvizos (i.e. thinking that a civil lawsuit would be filed) at the time that they reported their concerns to the Department of Children & Family Services.:
11 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: You indicated that you
12 interviewed the three Arvizo children and the
13 mother, right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Did you ever interview the father?
16 A. Never.
17 Q. Did you ever investigate anything about the
19 A. No.
20 Q. And that’s because you never really
21 investigated the family other than the interviews
22 you conducted, right?
23 A. That’s correct.
24 Q. Okay. Now, when were the dates of those
26 A. Mom was May 15, May 16, June 11. Gavin and
27 Star were May 29, June 11. And Davellin was May 29.
28 Q. So the first interview was May 15th, 4291
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The last interview was June 11th, correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Now, you told the prosecutor for the
6 government that at some point you went to the
7 Department of Children & Family Services about the
8 Arvizos, correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And was Mr. Feldman with you?
11 A. Yes, he was.
12 Q. Was it your belief at the time that Mr.
13 Feldman was representing the Arvizos?
14 A. Yes, it was.
15 Q. When did you and Mr. Feldman visit the
16 Department of Children & Family Services for the
17 first time to talk about the Arvizos?
18 A. June 12th, 2003.
19 Q. And you had a meeting at that department,
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. That department is in Los Angeles, right?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Did you ever have a second meeting at that
25 department about the Arvizos?
26 A. I did not.
27 Q. Was that the only meeting you had?
28 A. That’s correct. 4292
1 Q. Okay. Now, was it just you and Larry
2 Feldman at that meeting?
3 A. And an associate of his. I don’t recall his
4 name right now.
Here is a post from the Vindicate MJ blog which analyzes the Arvizo’s and Larry Feldman’s initial plans to file a frivolous civil lawsuit against Jackson in 2003.
Here is his testimony about his relationship with Larry Feldman, and how they interacted once the Arvizos were referred to him. Notice how when Dr. Katz was asked if he and William Dickerman had discussed the current case, Katz answered “not really”! Even talking about the case with other witnesses in the slightest manner was a violation of the gag order, and the defense would pounce on this information later on in the trial and use this (and a few other examples) as reasons why a mistrial should be declared by Judge Melville:
5 Q. Okay. Now, when you attended that meeting
6 with Mr. Feldman, did you know whether or not he was
7 a friend of someone named Jamie Masada?
8 A. I’m sorry, who was a friend?
9 Q. Mr. Feldman.
10 A. I had no idea.
11 Q. Do you know Jamie Masada?
12 A. Never met him.
13 Q. Do you know Attorney Bill Dickerman?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. And how do you know Attorney Bill Dickerman?
16 A. He was present at the meeting that I had
17 with Mr. Feldman on June 5th of 2003.
18 Q. Was he the only person at that meeting other
19 than you and Mr. Feldman, to your knowledge?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Who else was at that meeting?
22 A. Mr. Feldman’s wife, Jo Kaplan.
23 Q. Was anyone else at that meeting?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Was that the first time you met Attorney
26 Bill Dickerman?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Do you know anything about Bill Dickerman’s 4293
1 relationship with Jamie Masada?
2 A. He told me yesterday in the —
3 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object as hearsay.
4 THE COURT: You may answer the question “yes”
5 or “no.”
6 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the question,
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Yes. Do you have any
9 knowledge of Attorney Bill Dickerman’s relationship
10 with someone named Jamie Masada?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And where did your knowledge come from?
13 A. Mr. Dickerman.
14 Q. And did he tell you that they’re friends?
15 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object, Your Honor,
16 as hearsay.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Did you say you talked to
19 Bill Dickerman yesterday?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did he call you or did you call him?
22 A. No, we sat in the holding area upstairs
24 Q. Did you discuss the case at all with Mr.
26 A. Not really.
27 Q. Not really?
28 A. Well, we talked a little bit about times and 4294
1 where we were going to stay last night and coming
2 back here, and we talked about everything from the
3 weather, to soup, to nuts. Not very much about the
5 Q. Okay. Was your meeting with Mr. Dickerman
6 and Mr. Feldman the first time you had met Mr.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. After that meeting, did you have any further
10 contact with Mr. Dickerman before yesterday?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Have you communicated with him by letter at
13 any time since that initial meeting?
14 A. Never.
15 Q. Okay. So the only attorney you’ve ever
16 communicated with about this case is Attorney Larry
17 Feldman, right?
18 A. No. The attorney sitting in front of us
19 that we’ve named.
20 Q. The attorneys who are paid by the
22 A. Paid by the government, yes.
23 Q. Okay. To get convictions. Okay, all right.
24 MR. ZONEN: Is that a question?
25 MR. MESEREAU: I withdraw that.
26 MR. ZONEN: If it is, I’m going to object to
27 it as argumentative.
28 MR. MESEREAU: I withdraw that. I withdraw 4295
2 THE COURT: Objection’s sustained.
3 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you have any knowledge
4 of Larry Feldman filing any claim against Los
5 Angeles County?
6 A. I read that, I think, on The Smoking Gun, or
7 somewhere on the Internet, but he’s never said that
8 to me.
9 Q. Okay. Now, after your meeting at the Los
10 Angeles Department of Children & Family Services
11 that you have described, did you have any other
12 meetings with Mr. Feldman about this matter?
13 A. Other than what I’ve described?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you and Mr. Feldman ever jointly appear
17 with anyone in the Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Office to
18 discuss this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. After the meeting you had at the Department
21 of Children & Family Services, you spoke to the
22 Santa Barbara Sheriffs at some point, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And approximately when was that?
25 A. I received a call from Detective Paul Zelis
26 on June 13, 2003.
27 Q. That was the first contact after the DCFS
28 meeting you had, right? 4296
1 A. That’s correct.
2 Q. Okay. Did you have any knowledge of
3 Attorney Larry Feldman contacting the Santa Barbara
4 Sheriffs at any time after the DCFS meeting?
5 A. I have no knowledge of that.
6 Q. Did you ever discuss that possibility with
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you ever discuss with Attorney Feldman
10 whether or not he had talked to Mr. Sneddon after
11 the DCFS interview?
12 A. I don’t think we ever talked about that.
13 Q. Never?
14 A. I don’t have any recollection of that at
16 Q. Okay. So you’ve never heard anything about
17 that as you sit here today?
18 A. I’m sorry, about Mr. Feldman talking to Mr.
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Yes, I think that, as I said before, prior
22 to the call to — from Detective Zelis, I believe
23 that Mr. Feldman called the D.A.’s Office. I don’t
24 know if he personally talked to Mr. Sneddon or not.
25 Q. Now, your understanding of any contact Mr.
26 Feldman had in this case would have come from Mr.
27 Feldman, correct?
28 MR. ZONEN: Contact with whom? Objection; 4297
2 MR. MESEREAU: I’m sorry, let me rephrase
4 Q. After the DCFS meeting that you have
5 described, you learned at some point that Attorney
6 Feldman spoke to prosecutors in this case, correct?
7 MR. ZONEN: Unless this conversation was in
8 his presence, I’ll object as hearsay and lack of
10 MR. MESEREAU: State of mind, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: I’ll allow the question. “Yes”
12 or “no” answer only.
13 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question?
14 THE COURT: Do you want it read back?
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honor.
16 (Record read.)
17 THE WITNESS: The only — I’m sorry, but I’m
18 not sure which prosecutor or prosecutors or
19 assistant. I don’t — I know he called Mr.
20 Sneddon’s office. I don’t have a recollection if he
21 called directly to him.
22 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Okay. Do you have any
23 knowledge of when the Arvizos first met Attorney
24 Larry Feldman?
25 A. I vaguely remember. I think it was a month
26 or two before I saw them.
27 Q. Okay. And correct me if I’m wrong, but
28 you’re suggesting to the jury that sometime after 4298
1 your last interview on June 11th, the Arvizos in
2 some form contacted the police, correct?
3 A. I have no idea how that happened.
4 Q. Okay. Okay. But based on what you’ve just
5 said, and I’m referring exactly to your
6 understanding, that the Arvizos had talked to Mr.
7 Feldman for a month or two before you got involved,
9 A. And I’m very vague about it. It could be a
10 couple weeks, but some period of time before I got
12 MR. ZONEN: Judge, I’m going to object as
13 lack of foundation, unless he was involved in those
15 THE COURT: Overruled. Next question.
16 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Clearly, it was your
17 understanding that the Arvizos had spoke to Attorney
18 Larry Feldman before Mr. Feldman contacted you about
19 this case, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And based on what you’ve just told the jury,
22 it was approximately a month after your first
23 interview with any of the Arvizos that any report
24 was made to any agency, true?
25 MR. ZONEN: Objection; vague. I’m not sure
26 which agency, which report and by whom? By Feldman?
27 By the Arvizos? By the police?
28 THE COURT: All right. That’s enough. 4299
1 The objection is overruled.
2 Read the question back to him.
3 (Record read.)
4 THE WITNESS: The first interview was on
5 May 15th with mother. The first interview with the
6 children was May 29th. The report was made on June
8 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: That’s the report to DCFS,
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And it’s your understanding that any contact
12 with Santa Barbara, be it sheriffs or prosecutors,
13 was after your meeting at DCFS, correct?
14 A. That’s my understanding.
15 Q. Okay. Clearly, it was always your
16 understanding that the Arvizos first went to lawyers
17 before they ever went to any police office, correct?
18 A. It’s my understanding that they went to
19 attorneys before they went to the police department.
20 That’s my understanding.
21 Q. And was it your understanding that they
22 first went to Attorney Dickerman before they went to
23 Attorney Feldman?
24 A. Yes.
Next, Mesereau questioned Dr. Katz about his work with Feldman in 1993; notice how Dr. Katz mentions that his job was to review the VIDEOTAPES that were made of the interview between Jordan Chandler and Dr. Richard Gardner! Jordan’s uncle Ray Chandler probably made audio recordings based off of those video tapes, and he transcribed the interview on his website in 2004:
25 Q. Now, you have indicated that you were
26 retained by Attorney Larry Feldman to work with him
27 on his civil suit that he filed against Mr. Jackson
28 in 1993, correct? 4300
1 A. That’s correct.
2 Q. Was it your understanding that Mr. Feldman
3 was in contact with Mr. Sneddon in 1993?
4 MR. ZONEN: Objection; lack of foundation.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 THE WITNESS: I have no information about
7 that at all. I don’t have any memory of that, any
8 information about that.
9 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Regarding your work on the
10 1993 case for Attorney Larry Feldman, when did your
11 work cease?
12 A. Let me help you out by telling you what my
13 work was. My work was to review the videotapes that
14 were made between the victim —
15 Q. No, I’m — go ahead.
16 A. — and Dr. Richard Gardner.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. And to review those tapes, those videotapes,
19 and to view them and analyze them to give my
20 feedback to Mr. Feldman.
21 Q. To your knowledge, no criminal case was ever
22 filed against Mr. Jackson based on that ‘93 case,
24 A. That’s my understanding.
Here is the transcript of the interview between Jordan Chandler and Dr. Richard Gardner from October, 1993. It was thoroughly scrutinized and analyzed by MJJ Justice Project, so be sure to read it in order to gain a complete understanding of Jordan’s story.
Here is an excerpt of Bashir’s second “documentary” on Jackson, titled “Michael Jackson’s Secret World”; at the 9:40 mark, Bashir talks with Ray Chandler about Jordan’s interview (read this post for a complete transcript and rebuttal to this trash!)
Under redirect-examination, Zonen tried to get Dr. Katz to clarify why he thought that charges were not brought in 1993 against Jackson, and when Dr. Katz stated that it was because of the settlement, Mesereau immediately objected, and it was sustained by Judge Melville. Next, Zonen asked Dr. Katz to clarify his reference to the 40% of abuse claims that are false, and to state the “difficulties” that young boys face when making claims (Zonen was trying to insinuate that young boys cannot make false claims due to the stigma of being a victim):
16 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. ZONEN:
18 Q. Mr. Mesereau asked you if you knew whether
19 or not criminal charges had been filed against Mr.
20 Jackson as a result of that ‘93 investigation, and
21 you said no —
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. — that they had not been.
24 A. That’s my understanding.
25 Q. Do you know why not?
26 A. I understand a settlement —
27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Objection.
28 Irrelevant; foundation; beyond the scope. 4302
1 THE COURT: Foundation; sustained. And
3 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Doctor, you made a reference
4 to — or counsel made a reference to 40 percent
5 false accusations. What is that in reference to?
6 A. I was specifically talking about young
7 children. I was referring to the numerous cases
8 that were filed in the 1980s in preschools where we
9 had infants and toddlers alleging molestation, and I
10 was talking about the — the incredible number of
11 high-conflict divorce cases where there were
12 allegations of molestation with very young children,
13 pre-verbal children, under the age of three and
15 I was not talking about extrafamilial sexual
16 abuse. I wasn’t talking about older children. I
17 was specifically referring to those cases.
18 Q. What do you mean by extrafamilial sexual
20 A. Outside the family. Where the perpetrator
21 is not a member of the family.
22 Q. What is your understanding about the
23 percentage of false allegations in those types of
24 cases involving older children?
25 A. My experience, my clinical experience, my
26 collegial experience, is that there’s very, very few
27 false allegations made with alleged perpetrators
28 outside the family by a child over the age of five. 4303
1 Q. And involving specifically allegations of
2 sexual abuse involving boys, adolescent boys, what
3 are the difficulties involved in making a false
4 allegation —
5 A. Well —
6 Q. — or sustaining it?
7 A. A pre-adolescent or adolescent boy is
8 hypersensitive about his sexuality. It would be
9 extremely unusual for a child who’s developmentally
10 at a stage where he’s trying to figure out who he
11 is, and to actually become a man, to make an
12 allegation which would suggest that he’s had
13 inappropriate sexual relationships with a male. It
14 would be extremely rare because these children are
15 so protective and so guilt-ridden and shamed by any
16 behavior that’s extraordinary and extra-normal.
17 So it would be highly unusual in my
18 experience for a 12- or 13-year-old to make false
19 allegations regarding a male perpetrator.
20 Q. All right. Doctor, based on your experience
21 of as many years as you’ve been dealing with this,
22 have you had any personal dealings or associations
23 with cases where you believed there was a false
24 allegation by an adolescent child motivated by
26 A. Well, I’ve had some experience where I’ve
27 had some young girls actually allege molestation by
28 stepfathers to get out of the home sometimes, or 4304
1 fathers, and they have been recanted fairly quickly
2 after investigations began.
3 Q. Are there difficulties in a child
4 maintaining false allegations, from a practical
6 A. In my experience, a child who is going to
7 lie and fabricate cannot be consistent and hold that
8 very long, because children are impulsive, they
9 can’t delay gratification. You can’t tell a child,
10 “Years from now, if you lie, something good will
11 happen.” Children are very much living in the now.
12 They don’t maintain consistent allegations when they
13 start feeling as if the disadvantages of making
14 those allegations seriously outweigh any advantages.
15 MR. ZONEN: No further questions.
To be continued: https://michaeljacksonvindication2.wordpress.com/2012/10/16/march-30th-2005-trial-analysis-cynthia-bell-cross-examination-dr-stan-katz-william-dickerman-jeff-klapakis-direct-cross-examination-part-3-of-4/