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April 7th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Ralph Chacon (Direct & Cross Examination), Adrian McManus (Direct & Cross Examination), Part 1 of 5

December 2, 2012

Ralph Chacon

There was no court on April 6th, 2005, so the case resumed on the 7th. The next prosecution witness was Ralph Chacon, who worked the graveyard shift as a security officer at Neverland from 1991 through 1994. He and four other Neverland employees (Adrian McManus, Kassim Abdool, Sandy Domz, and Melanie Bagnall) filed a civil lawsuit against Jackson in December 1994, claiming wrongful termination, breach of contract, and sexual harassment. For some background on this lawsuit, here is an excerpt from pages 171-182 Diane Dimond’s book “Be Careful Who You Love”, and BY NO MEANS SHOULD THE INCLUSION OF THIS EXCERPT FROM HER BOOK BE MISCONSTRUED AS AN ENDORSEMENT! The only reason I’m including this is because this is one of the most detailed accounts of the Neverland Five civil trial.

In December 1994, three months after the criminal case against Michael Jackson sputtered to a halt, five former Neverland Ranch employees sued Jackson and seven members of his Neverland staff for “wrongful termination”. They claimed they had been harassed by Jackson’s armed bodyguards and subjected to retribution for cooperating with the criminal investigation.


The plaintiffs were Kassim Abdool, the onetime head of the Neverland security guards, and two of his trusted staff, Officers Ralph Chacon and Melanie Bagnall; Adrian McManus, the woman who replaced Blanca Franica as Jackson’s longtime personal chambermaid; and Sandy Domz, the office manager and one of the few holdovers from the pre-Jackson days at the ranch when it was called the Syccamore Valley Ranch.


While none of the Neverland Five revealed exactly what questions they were asked during the grand jury proceedings, from interviews and documents, it appears clear that what they testified to was devastating for Michael Jackson.


It is probable that Ralph Chacon, who was found “credible” on not one but two polygraph tests, told the closed-door panel that he was an eyewitness to child molestation.  In an interview, he claimed he’d actually seen Michael Jackson performing fellatio upon Jordan Chandler in a shower room at the ranch. 


Kassim Abdool was also given a lie detector test by authorities, but the outcome was “inconclusive,” as at the time he was taking medication known to interfere with polygraph tests.  His testimony to the grand jury, however, may well have been equally shocking.


Long before he was ever called to the grand jury, Abdool recalled the night he received a walkie-talkie call from Michael Jackson while on duty at the ranch.  Jackson requested a jar of Vaseline be delivered to his bedroom suit immediately, Abdool said.  When asked where in the world he’d gotten a jar of Vaseline late at night on a secluded ranch, he said there were jars of it all over the property.  It was one of the maid’s many duties to keep all of the bathrooms at Neverland  (even  the game room) fully stocked for guests with toothbrushes, toothpaste, shampoo, Band-aids, Vaseline, and more.


Jar in hand, Kassim said, he and Ralph Chacon entered the main house and delivered the Vaseline to the master bedroom suite.  When Michael Jackson opened the bedroom door for his head of security, Chacon noticed his boss was “sweaty and his pajama bottoms were opened.”  There were children –two young boys- in the room with Jackson.  Jordan Chandler was one of them.  The bedroom door quickly closed, and Abdool and Chacon returned to their posts, disturbed about what they had seen. 


Security Officer Melanie Bagnall’s story was also likely a compelling one for the grand jurors.  While patrolling the ranch one day she spotted her employer, along with one of his young visitors, riding in one of Neverland’s golf carts.  As they passed each other on the pathway, Bagnall said she couldn’t help but notice how close together the man and boy were sitting in the cart.  She also observed that Jackson had his cupped hand resting in the boy’s crotch.


We all know that the Arvizo family studied the 1993 case against Jackson because Gavin specifically told Dr. Stan Katz that “Well, Jordy Chandler did not stop him!” (in reference to Jackson. Please read this post for more information.) As further proof that the Arvizos studied the Chandler’s extortion playbook, look at what Star Arvizo told Detective Zelis during his interviews, which took place several months before the raid of Neverland.

When asked, Star said Michael Jackson touched him inappropriately. The incident occurred when they were in a golf cart. Star was driving the golf cart and Michael was next to him. Michael then reached over and touched Star’s “testicles and penis” over his clothes with Michael’s left hand. He did not say anything to Michael and continued driving the golf cart.

That excerpt comes from page 50 of the prosecution’s Statement of Probable Cause, which was filed on November 17th, 2003. (There are other references to Jackson’s alleged abuse of Star on pages 12 & 23.) It’s clearly obvious that Star concocted his story of being fondled by Jackson while riding a golf cart from Melanie Bagnall’s story, which was referenced in the final paragraph of the aforementioned excerpt from Dimond’s book.


Now, back to The Neverland 5: they claimed that they were harassed for cooperating with the criminal investigation, and they quit by late summer 1994.  Their suit included charges of wrongful termination, breach of contract, and sexual harassment. However, they had one ray of hope; one of the defendants of the lawsuit, Jerome Johnson, flipped on Jackson, claiming that he couldn’t “lie for MJ’ any longer.  He submitted an official declaration that corroborated everything that the Neverland 5 claimed in their lawsuit, and he was prepared to testify against MJ at the civil trial.  However, Johnson had a change of heart when some incriminating evidence against him was found!


But before Johnson was to take the stand, Jackson’s defense team asked for an in-chambers meeting with the judge.  They held in their hands an ominous-looking typewritten note and handed it to the judge.


In the best interest of all concerned in regard to case number SM89344, we ask that seven million ($7,000,000.00) be wired to the following no later than Wednesday, January 24, 1996: Great Western Bank, 401 California Street, San Francisco, California 94104. Account number 062-808-3464. After verification of receipt, outstanding items will be completed and forwarded to the appropriate parties and full cooperation will be extended.


Each plaintiff was called into chambers separately and asked if he or she knew anything about the note.  No one did. Determined to get to the bottom of the mystery, Judge Canter ultimately ordered a DNA swab taken from every participant in the case so it could be match to the envelope lick on the extortion note.

A DNA match came back. The envelope had been licked by Jerome Johnson’s wife, who was in the banking industry.

When Jerome Johnson was finally called to the stand in the Neverland Five trial, he promptly took the Fifth and refused to testify.  Whatever hopes the Neverland Five had were snuffed out that day.


In the end, the Neverland Five were ordered to pay Michael Jackson more than $1.5 million to satisfy the countersuit he had filed against them.  Ralph Chacon and Adrian McManus were found individually liable for stealing souvenirs from Neverland and reselling some for thousands of dollars. A jury of their peers had heard their complaints and didn’t believe them.  Each of the Neverland Five, except for Adrian McManus, who stubbornly refused, was forced to file for bankruptcy.  Their lives were forever changed by their association with Michael Jackson – and for some of them, this would not be their last time in court to testify against Jackson.

And here is Dimond’s spin on why Jackson won the case:

As Marjorie Hilibrant, one of the twelve jurors who sat during the six-month-long trial later told me, “They didn’t have a chance. The defense lawyers were so clever in making the five look like the worst employees ever.”

“I took my oath seriously to go by the evidence,” Hillibrant said. “But Michael Ring kept getting slapped down by the judge. His opening argument was very compelling, but the judge wouldn’t let him speak. We’d hear something interesting, then Judge Canter would say, ‘Disregard.’ It was so frustrating!”

Hillibrant also said she had taken three notebook full of notes during the trial and when they finally went into deliberation she felt there was a lot to talk about. However, she said, several of the other jurors just wanted to vote. They didn’t want to go over notes; they dug in their heels against the five, concluding they were “just in it for the money.”

“You know what really troubled me? The sexual harassment evidence was so obvious. They were so guilty, but we didn’t even find them guilty of that. And those guards –those OSS men – just sat there laughing at the defense table!”

Hillibrant also revealed that even years after the trial, she was still haunted by the verdict. “I felt like a piece of my life was cut out. To me that case was about nothing but the money and the celebrity. That’s why Jackson won.”


Yeah, whatever.

Those two lawsuits should tell you something about the character, or lack thereof, of those ten disgruntled employees (including the Hayvenhurst Five, who filed a frivolous wrongful termination lawsuit against Jackson in November 1993, after they were initially fired in February 1993!) who decided to ride the tidal wave of negative coverage against Jackson and use it to their advantage by selling lies to the press.  It obviously backfired against the Neverland Five, four of which filed bankruptcy as a result of their losses, and this left a bitter pill in their mouths that motivated them to testify against MJ in 2005.

Here is Sneddon’s summary of Chacon’s story, taken from his December 2004 pleading titled “PLAINTIFF’S MOTION FOR ADMISSION OF EVIDENCE OF DEFENDANT’S PRIOR SEXUAL OFFENSES”. As you can see, Chacon made some very explicit, vulgar, and salacious allegations!


Ralph Chacon’s employment at Neverland Valley Ranch began on August 11, 1991. He was hired as a security officer. His general responsibilities included keeping intruders off the property, doing motor patrols around the perimeter of the ranch and keeping and maintaining security so that individuals could not get next to Jackson’s main residence. He was not armed. It was his first security guard job. He had been previously employed as an auto repairman.

In connection with an investigation of the 1993 allegations by Jordan Chandler, Mr. Chacon was subpoenaed to the Santa Barbara County Grand Jury and testified on May 10, 1994.

During most of 1992 and during the time of the incidents set forth in this offer of proof, Mr. Chacon worked the graveyard shift from 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. at Neverland Valley Ranch. He recalled an unusual incident in 1992, which he believes occurred in the spring because the weather was nice. At the time, Chacon was engaged in putting away the golf carts. He believes he started this project between 10:30 and 11:00 p.m.

Chacon heard the back door to the main residence slam. Chacon noticed Jackson and another young boy corning out of the house in swimming trunks. They went to the Jacuzzi located near the swimming pool. He was aware that there was another security officer in that area, so he continued putting away the golf carts.

About the time Chacon finished securing the golf carts for the night, he heard Michael Jackson yelling in a high-pitched voice, “Security, security.” As he started in that direction, he saw Sgt. Kassim Abdool in the area so he returned to finishing the cart project. After a while he saw the cook, Bucky Black, coming out of the house carrying a tray. Later, when Sgt. Abdool left the area to do some mobile patrolling, Chacon took up Abdool’s post near the barbecue area behind the house. He heard but could not see Michael Jackson and the boy inside the Jacuzzi. After a while Jackson and the boy got out of the Jacuzzi and walked towards the back bathrooms in the recreation room which is located near the video arcade. There are two bathrooms, one for females and one for males. They entered the “males” bathroom and closed the door. About this time Bucky Black exited the residence and left the property.

About half an hour after Jackson and the boy entered the bathroom, Chacon became curious. Chacon went to the left side of the recreation building where the tennis courts are located. He walked down the sidewalk to the back of the bathrooms. The “males” bathroom and the “females” bathroom each have a window. As he approached the area, he could hear Jackson and the boy, and he could hear the shower. Looking inside through the window Chacon saw only one shower. From the sound he could tell Jackson and the young boy were in the shower together, but he could not see them because the curtain was pulled closed.

Chacon then started to return to his previous location, but about half way down the path he decided to go back. He got to the window and inched closer. By this time Michael Jackson and the young boy were out of the shower and had moved to a larger, open area near the wash basins. They were now standing near the area where robes and towels are kept. They were facing each other. Both were naked. Michael Jackson was fondling the boy. He could see Michael Jackson bending over and kissing all over the boy’s face and mouth. By ‘fondling,” Chacon described Michael Jackson’s hands moving all over the child’s body, as a nan would passionately caress a woman.

Michael Jackson was taller than the boy. Jackson was bending over and started to go down in front of the boy, kissing the child all the way down to his stomach. Jackson then took the boy’s penis and put it into his mouth. Chacon actually saw Jackson put the child’s penis into his mouth and that’s when he took off. Approximately ten to twenty seconds lapsed from the time he first saw Michael Jackson kissing and fondling the child until the time that he saw him place the child’s penis in his mouth. The kissing was continuous until Jackson put the child’s penis in his mouth.

The bathroom area where Chacon saw Jackson and the boy was well lit. There are lights in the bathroom area and additional lights where the towels were located, as well as over by the wash basins. The showers have lighting as well. The outside lighting was very minimal, where was only a small sidewalk light to help guide persons walking in the area.

After about an hour, Chacon heard the bathroom door open. Jackson and the boy exited the room and the boy was mounted on Michael’s shoulders. The boy had on a white robe, but his legs were dangling around Michael’s neck. Chacon could see the boy was naked underneath. Jackson had a towel wrapped around his waist.

Chacon recognized the boy as a child who spent a lot of time at the ranch. He described the child’s height as coming up to approximately Jackson’s chin. He had dark, long and straight hair. His skin tone was tanned like Chacon’s. The boy’s parents were not at the ranch at the time that this incident occurred. There were no other children at the ranch on this occasion. He believes this child was a boy named “Jordy,” but there was another kid from Australia whose name was Brett Barnes. Barnes was the spitting image of Jordy and sometimes it was hard for Chacon to tell who was Jordy and who was Brett, although Jordy was a little bit taller than Brett.

In another incident, closely related in time, both the Barnes family from Australia and Jordy were at the ranch. Two or more boys were in the video arcade playing games. Chacon was by the pool walking around when he saw Michael Jackson come out of the house and walk to the back door of the arcade, which is located between the bathrooms. While standing by the slide in the pool area, Chacon had a really good view into the video room. It vas at night, but the arcade’s interior was well lit. He could see everything going on inside.

Chacon saw Jordan Chandler sitting at one of the video games. The other boys were upstairs playing on other video machines. Michael Jackson approached Jordan, bent down as if to talk to him and then kissed him on the mouth. They both then got up, walked out the back door, got into the Moon Rover cart and drove off. The Moon Rover is a black golf cart which Michael drives around. About a half hour later they returned. Chacon was still in the barbecue area and saw Sgt. Abdool in the breezeway area when Jackson and Jordan Chandler returned. As Michael and the boy got out of the Moon Rover, they were standing in front of the Peter Pan display. Sgt. Abdool said something to them and walked off. As soon as Sgt. Abdool was out of sight, Jackson put his hands all over Jordan, smooching him on the leek and then turned him around and kissed him on the mouth. It wasn’t for a long period, but Chacon described the kiss as passionate. During the kiss, he saw Jackson’s hands go quickly down into the child’s private areas. This lasted for a short period before they went into the louse.

Chacon stated that Michael and Jordan would often disappear with the Moon Rover and stay out on the property for long periods of time.

Chacon never mentioned these incidents to anyone other than to Sgt. Abdool. Chacon stated he was afraid to discuss this with anybody because he didn’t want to create any waves and was concerned for his safety. He stated that he was probably wrong in not reporting it, but he didn’t think anyone was going to believe him.

Prior to his testimony, Chacon was twice contacted by Attorney Steve Cochran and Eric Mason, a private investigator for Michael Jackson. They wanted to interview him prior to the Grand Jury. He told them it was none of their business. He told them that after Grand Jury they’ll know what he knows. They asked him why and he told them, because they were not his attorneys and he did not want them to be his attorneys.

On March 25th, 2005 Mesereau submitted the following pleading titled “SUPPLEMENTAL BRIEF IN SUPPORT OF OPPOSITION TO DISTRICT ATTORNEY’S MOTION FOR ADMISSION OF ALLEGED PRIOR OFFENSES”, in which he stated the following rebuttal to the allegations of Chacon and others:

The Abdool Plaintiffs

The defense requests that the Court take judicial notice of the file in Abdool v. Jackson, Santa Maria Superior Court, Case No. SM 89344. The plaintiffs in that case, including Adrian McManus and Ralph Chacon, who are listed as witnesses in the prosecution’s motion, and their lawyer, Michael Ring, were sanctioned jointly on numerous occasions for lying in their depositions and to the court.

The total sanctions were approximately $66,000. The sanctions were imposed for discovery violations and for forcing the defendants to prove, in open court, that the plaintiffs were lying. The sanctions were imposed because the plaintiffs had lied in their depositions and, in some instances, actually lied on the stand in open court. For instance, on one occasion, one of the plaintiffs, while on the stand, blatantly contradicted her own testimony, given earlier in the day. The judge left the bench saying he was disgusted.

The jury in the Abdool case found against the plaintiff on all of their allegations. The jury also found in favor of the defendant, Michael Jackson, and against Adrian McManus and Ralph Chacon, for stealing from Mr. Jackson. The court imposed attorney’s fees and costs of $1.4 million against the plaintiffs. The trial of these plaintiffs lasted 6 months and 1 day before The Honorable Judge Canter. Were these plaintiffs to be called in this case, one would assume, based on the six month duration of the Abdool trial, that the plaintiff’s testimony and the defense would take at least a month in and of itself.

Furthermore, these witnesses were not claiming to be percipient witnesses to actual sexual offenses, with the exception of Ralph Chacon.

Ralph Chacon is a liar. He lied about being given a weapons permit based on his role as a witness. He lied in deposition. He lied to reporters and he lied on the stand.

Adrian McManus had stolen from her own family members. She was sued for stealing niece and nephew’s inheritance. She made all sorts of false and contradictory claims.

The plaintiffs were allowed to talk about the allegations in pretrial discovery, and did so. The only person having anything salacious to say was Ralph Chacon. When the case came to trial, the trial court disallowed evidence of the salacious allegations because they had nothing to do with the causes of action in the litigation. Nevertheless, these plaintiffs were thoroughly discredited, not only as to the allegations they made in court, but as to what Mr. Chacon had to say.

With regard to all of the Abdool plaintiffs, they lied about going to the media and selling their stories, when in fact, they had an agent and had gone to the media to sell their stories. It turned out they were a bit too late to take advantage of the opportunities that Blanca Francia and the Quindoys were able to cash in on. These people tried to hawk their false stores and were unsuccessful, so they filed their meritless lawsuit. They lied about meeting with the media. As if this were not enough, the stories that they told and personally edited were so fantastic and salacious, they had denied ever saying such things, when they believed that Mr. Jackson’s counsel did not know about it. Even after the stories appeared, they denied that they had talked with the journalists, because they denied that the events in the stories occurred. In one instance, it was demonstrated that their handwritten notes were on drafts of the stories. Once again, it will be necessary to relitigate all of this.

Here is a newspaper article from March 15th, 1997 about the amount of fines and penalties that were incurred by Ring and the Neverland Five for their dishonest actions during the civil trial:

newspaper article on Michael Ring being fined for dishonesty during the Neverland 5 civil trial


Here is Chacon’s testimony about his background and tenure at Neverland:





26 Q. Mr. Chacon, in order for everybody to hear


27 you, you’re going to need to lean into that


28 microphone, okay? Would you do that for us? 5161

1 A. Yes, sir.


2 Q. Thank you.


3 Mr. Chacon, did you used to work at


4 Neverland Valley Ranch?


5 A. Yes, sir.


6 Q. During what period of time?


7 A. Between ‘91 and ‘94.


8 Q. And prior to working at Neverland Valley


9 Ranch, where — what employment did you have?


10 A. I used to repo vehicles in Thousand Oaks.


11 Q. Is that where you’re from, Thousand Oaks?


12 A. Born and raised, yes, sir.


13 Q. And during the time that you were at


14 Neverland Valley Ranch, what was your position?


15 A. Security.


16 Q. And could you describe to the ladies and


17 gentlemen of the jury generally what your


18 responsibilities were as a security officer?


19 A. Secure Neverland property, front gate, fence


20 lines, around the main house, keeping intruders out,


21 and also taking care of the temperatures in the


22 animal areas.


23 Q. What shift did you work at the ranch?


24 A. Graveyard.


25 Q. Would you tell us what “graveyard,” what


26 that entails? What are the hours?


27 A. From 10:00 till 6:00 in the morning.

In 1994, Chacon was subpoenaed to testify before the grand jury that was impaneled to investigate child abuse charges against Jackson. Although he did not testify, he did make a sworn statement under oath to Sneddon and Det. Birchim in which he stated that, in the early 1990’s, he observed Jackson engaging in inappropriate conduct with Brett Barnes. However, his story changed, and during the trial he testified that it was Jordan Chandler that he witnessed being abused by Jackson!

On May 4th, 2005 the prosecution submitted a pleading titled “PLAINTIFF’S MOTION IN LIMINE TO EXCLUDE EVIDENCE OF 1994 INTERVIEW OF LIZETTE BARNES ON EVIDENCE CODE SECTION 352 GROUNDS”, in which they argued that Lizette Barnes, the mother of Brett Barnes, shouldn’t be allowed to testify in defense of Jackson. This document included a declaration from Lauren Weis, who was the Acting Head Deputy of the Sex Crimes Division of the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office, and was assigned to investigate Jackson to ascertain if criminal charges were warranted. Weis, Sneddon, and several other law enforcement personnel travelled to Australia in June 1994 in order to try to obtain an interview with Brett Barnes, and his parents, and determine if what they were told by Ralph Chacon was true. After entertaining the idea of letting Brett be interviewed by the police, Liz Barnes and her husband refused to allow it. Here is her declaration:

Declaration of Det. Lauren Weis, part 1 of 2Declaration of Det. Lauren Weis, part 2 of 2

So pay attention to how Chacon repeatedly states throughout his testimony that it was Jordan Chandler, and not Brett Barnes, that he saw being sexually abused by Jackson! (For more information on Chacon, the Neverland Five, and their links to Victor Gutierrez, please read this post.)

Here is Chacon’s testimony regarding the subpoena he received in 1994 to testify in front of the grand jury; instead of testifying as scheduled, he merely read a prepared statement, under oath, to Sneddon and Det. Birchim:

28 Q. Now, do you recall a time when you were 5162


1 working at the Neverland Valley Ranch in which Mr.


2 Jackson was the subject of an investigation?


3 A. Yes, sir.


4 Q. And what years was that; do you recall?


5 A. I really don’t. I don’t recall.


6 Q. During the time that you were at the ranch,


7 did you get subpoenaed to appear before the Santa


8 Barbara County Grand Jury?


9 A. Yes, sir, I did.


10 Q. Do you recall when that was?


11 A. I believe it was in ‘94.


12 Q. Do you recall the month?


13 A. I’m guessing, could be probably May or


14 something around there. I’m not sure.


15 Q. And do you know an individual by the name of


16 Kassim Abdool?


17 A. Yes, sir.


18 Q. Who is Kassim Abdool?


19 A. He was at that time chief of security at


20 Neverland.


21 Q. And at the time that you were subpoenaed


22 before the grand jury, were you and Mr. Abdool


23 carpooling back and forth to work?


24 A. Yes, sir, we were.


25 Q. And how long had you known Mr. Abdool?


26 A. Probably the duration of our employment at


27 Neverland. Probably about three years. Three, four


28 years. Something like that. 5163


1 Q. And to your knowledge, did Mr. Abdool also


2 get subpoenaed to appear before the grand jury?


3 A. Yes, sir, he did.


4 Q. And do you recall where you were directed to


5 appear, which county?


6 A. Supposed to be in Los Angeles County. But I


7 didn’t go to Los Angeles County.


8 Q. At some time prior to appearing before the


9 grand jury, pursuant to subpoena, were you contacted


10 by attorneys representing Mr. Jackson?


11 A. Yes, sir.


12 Q. On how many occasions?


13 A. I can remember two occasions that I was


14 called to come before them.


15 Q. And do you recall who those attorneys were?


16 A. Mr. Steve Cochran, I believe, and I remember


17 an Eric Mason. Mr. Sanger.


18 Q. Do you recall where the first meeting


19 occurred?


20 A. It happened in Mr. Jackson’s outside office


21 at Neverland.


22 Q. And do you recall when the second meeting


23 occurred?


24 A. It happened in Santa Barbara at Mr. Sanger’s


25 office.


26 Q. And were both of these meetings prior to the


27 time you were to appear before the grand jury, your


28 subpoena date? 5164


1 A. Yes, sir.


2 Q. Now, as a result of the receiving a subpoena


3 to the grand jury, did you make contact with law


4 enforcement?


5 A. Yes, I did.


6 Q. And do you recall who it was you contacted?


7 A. I believe it was Mr. Birchim.


8 Q. And do you recall what agency Mr. Birchim


9 worked for?


10 A. I believe it was the sheriff — Santa


11 Barbara Sheriff’s Department.


12 Q. And when you — I’m sorry. When you


13 contacted Mr. Birchim, did you have a conversation


14 with him?


15 A. Yes, sir.


16 Q. And did you relay to him certain


17 information?


18 A. I did.


19 Q. And after that, did you have contact with


20 any other — was there more than one meeting with


21 Mr. Birchim?


22 A. I’m sure there was, but I don’t remember.


23 But I know there was more than two meetings with


24 him.


25 Q. Now, you told the ladies and gentlemen of


26 the jury that you did not appear before the Los


27 Angeles County Grand Jury. Did you at some time


28 make a statement under oath with regard to what you 5165


1 observed?


2 A. Yes, sir, I did.


3 Q. And do you recall when that was?


4 A. I believe it was ‘94. I’m not for certain.


5 It’s been a while.


6 Q. Do you recall whether it was at or about the


7 time when you were supposed to appear before the


8 grand jury?


9 A. Oh. Yes, sir. It was probably the day


10 after.


11 Q. And do you recall where it was that you were


12 interviewed?


13 A. In Santa Barbara.


14 Q. And do you recall who was present during the


15 time that you were interviewed?


16 A. Well, the only ones that I remember is

17 yourself and Mr. Birchim.


18 Q. And was that statement given under oath?


19 A. Yes, sir.


20 Q. Now, during the time that you were employed


21 at Neverland Ranch, did you personally observe


22 anything that you felt was inappropriate with regard


23 to Mr. Jackson’s behavior —


24 A. Yes, sir.


Chacon claimed that he saw Jackson and Jordan Chandler heading towards a Jacuzzi while working the nightshift. They were there alone for a while, and he heard them talking and laughing with each other. According to Chacon, Jackson and Jordan Chandler then went into a rest room and did not come until 35 or 40 minutes later. He walked over to the rest room area and heard them showering together, and walked away, but then decided to go back and investigate.

26 And do you recall approximately what year


27 that was?


28 A. I want to say latter ‘92 or early ‘93. I am 5166


1 not — I’m not positive.


2 Q. Do you recall what time of day or night it


3 was?


4 A. It was — well, I had come on graveyard


5 shift, so it had to have been about probably


6 midnight, or before midnight.


7 Q. And do you recall what the weather was like


8 that night?


9 A. It was very nice. Very nice weather.


10 Q. Now, when you first came to work that


11 evening, what were the first things that you did; do


12 you recall?


13 A. I would come in and check out the radio. We


14 carried radios and a flashlight. I would check my


15 box for any memos that were generated. Then I


16 would — we had — there was electric golf carts


17 that we had to put on chargers for the night.


18 Q. At some time that evening, did you see Mr.


19 Jackson?


20 A. Yes, sir.


21 Q. And do you recall where Mr. Jackson was the


22 first time that you saw him that evening?


23 A. He was headed for the Jacuzzi.


24 Q. And do you know whether or not he was alone


25 or with someone?


26 A. He was with someone.


27 Q. And when you say he was with someone, do you


28 know who that was? 5167


1 A. Yes, sir.


2 Q. Who was that?


3 A. That was Jordie.


4 Q. And could you approximate the age of Jordie?


5 A. I want to say nine, ten years old.


6 Q. So he was with a child?


7 A. Yes, sir.


8 Q. Not an adult?


9 A. No.


10 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.


11 THE COURT: Overruled. Next question.


12 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Now, I may have missed this


13 or I may have asked this. When you say you saw Mr.


14 Jackson in the company of this child, Jordie, what


15 direction were they headed?


16 A. Towards the Jacuzzi.


17 Q. Is that an area near where you were putting


18 things away?


19 A. It was close by. But from the area where I


20 was at, the garage area, I had — I had gone to the


21 barbecue area, which was close, maybe ten feet, to


22 the Jacuzzi.


23 Q. And did you — were you able to see Mr.


24 Jackson and the child in the Jacuzzi?


25 A. I couldn’t see them from where I was


26 standing, but I could hear them in the water.


27 Q. Now, at some point, did you hear Mr. Jackson


28 speak out? 5168


1 A. Yes, sir.


2 Q. And what —


3 Your Honor, this is not offered for the


4 truth of the matter, but simply to explain the


5 conduct that occurs thereafter?


6 THE COURT: All right.


7 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: What did you hear Mr.


8 Jackson say?


9 A. While in the Jacuzzi?


10 Q. Yes.


11 A. They were just — just laughing, playing. I


12 don’t remember what they were saying, but I know


13 that they were talking and having fun.


14 Q. At some time did Mr. Jackson request


15 something from the house?


16 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.


17 THE WITNESS: That was before —


18 THE COURT: Just a moment.


19 MR. SNEDDON: You have to wait for the Judge


20 to rule, I’m sorry.


21 THE WITNESS: I’m sorry.


22 THE COURT: Overruled.


23 You may answer.


24 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Okay. Now you can answer.


25 THE COURT: Do you want the question read


26 back?


27 THE WITNESS: No, sir.


28 Well, actually, that was — I heard them – 5169


1 I heard him when I was still hooking up the golf


2 carts. He had called for security.


3 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.


4 THE COURT: Sustained.


5 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Okay. So at some point you


6 heard Mr. Jackson yell for security?


7 A. Yes, sir.


8 Q. And where were you when that occurred?


9 A. I was in the garage area.


10 Q. Now, at some point that evening, did you see


11 Mr. Jackson and the child, Jordie, leave the


12 Jacuzzi?


13 A. Yes, sir, I did.


14 Q. Could you tell the ladies and gentlemen of


15 the jury, were you able to observe where they went?


16 A. Yes, sir.


17 Q. And where did they go?


18 A. They were going to the outside rest room


19 area by the rec room.


20 Q. And is the rec room near another building or


21 attached to a building on the premises?


22 A. Well, it’s on its — the rest room’s


23 attached to the rec room. So it sits by itself.


24 It’s two stories.


25 Q. All right. Are there other facilities


26 inside of that building itself?


27 A. Just a game room, that’s all it was.


28 Q. Do you know what the game room is called? 5170


1 A. Just — no, I don’t.


2 Q. Describe the game room, if you would.


3 A. They had, like, probably maybe 20 different


4 type of computer games, the first floor, and also


5 with the top, the top floor had different type of


6 games.


7 Q. Have you been in that building before?


8 A. Yes, sir.


9 Q. And do you know whether or not that building


10 has a cellar?


11 A. A what, sir?


12 Q. A cellar?


13 A. Um, I want to say that had a wine cellar,

14 yes, sir.


15 Q. All right. In any event, you saw Mr.


16 Jackson and the child heading towards the rest room


17 area; is that correct?


18 A. Yes, sir.


19 Q. Did you watch them the entire time?


20 A. Yes, sir.


21 Q. And did you see where they went?


22 A. They went inside the rest room.


23 Q. Now, where were you located when you


24 observed this?


25 A. I was in the barbecue area, where I usually


26 normally observe everything.


27 Q. That’s a security position you’re assigned?


28 A. Yes, sir. 5171


1 Q. Now, at the time that you saw Mr. Jackson


2 and the boy go into the rest room area, did you at


3 some point in time approach the rest room?


4 A. Yes, I did.


5 Q. Do you recall from the time that you saw


6 Mr. Jackson and the child go into the rest room


7 area, how long it was before you approached the


8 area?


9 A. Probably a half an hour, maybe 35, 40


10 minutes.


11 Q. And then could you describe to the ladies


12 and gentlemen of the jury where you went?


13 A. I went around the rec room that leads right


14 behind the rest rooms. That’s where I went.


15 Q. And what did you do when you got there?


16 Well, when you got in that area, did you hear or see


17 anything?


18 A. Yes, sir.


19 Q. And which?


20 A. Well, I heard first that Mr. Jackson and the


21 boy were inside a shower, the shower room in there.


22 Q. How many showers are there in the rest room?


23 A. There was only one shower.


24 Q. Let’s just stop right there for just a


25 second, before we go any further. Could you explain


26 to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury the interior


27 of the rest room area?


28 A. As you go in from the rec room, the women’s 5172


1 rest room is on the left and the men’s room is on


2 the right. And as you go in, there’s a dressing


3 area, and it’s open, and it leads into where the


4 wash basins are at, pretty large area. And then it


5 goes into another smaller room where there’s a


6 toilet and the showers.


7 Q. And you said “showers.”


8 A. Shower. Excuse me, shower.


9 Q. All right. Now, you’ve indicated that you


10 heard some people in the shower. Did you recognize


11 the voices?


12 A. Yes, sir, I did.


13 Q. Whose voices did you recognize?


14 A. Mr. Jackson’s and Jordie’s.


15 Q. And did you look into the shower area?


16 A. Not right away. Not the first time that I


17 came around, because I couldn’t see anything. But I


18 started to leave the area when I — I was thinking,


19 I said, “What’s going on here?” You know, “There’s


20 a grown man in a shower with a boy.”


21 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; move to strike.


22 THE COURT: Stricken.


23 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: All right. So you left?


24 A. Right.


25 Q. How far did you go?


26 A. I didn’t go too far, probably halfway around


27 the rec room.


28 Q. All right. And did you decide to go back? 5173


1 A. Yes, sir, I did.


2 Q. Why did you decide to go back?


3 A. I wanted to know what was going on in there.


4 Q. Why?


5 A. Because it wasn’t — it wasn’t right.


6 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Relevance; move


7 to strike.


8 THE COURT: I’ll strike the question, “Why?”


9 And the answer.


10 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Okay. So you went back.


11 When you went back, where did you go to?


12 A. I went back to the same area where the


13 shower was located. There was a window, and I was


14 able to see and they were no longer in the shower.


15 Q. So you looked into the window?


16 A. Yes, sir.

As he returned to the area just outside of the rec room, he claims to have observed Jackson and Jordan Chandler were standing together, in the nude, with Jackson kissing and caressing Jordan, and eventually performing oral sex on Jordan. And instead of busting through the door to put a stop to this heinous act, instead Chacon just left without saying or doing anything to stop it!

One easy way to know that Chacon is pulling this story straight out of his ass is the fact that Jordan Chandler NEVER claimed to have been abused at Neverland! Here is an analysis of his interview with Dr. Richard Gardner on October 6th, 1993 from MJJ Justice Project. The transcript of Jordan’s interview with Dr. Gardner is included, and in it you’ll clearly see that he never claimed that any misconduct occurred at Neverland, and in his so-called “declaration” (which is legally different than a deposition!), he made no mention of abuse at Neverland. You can read this post and this post to learn about the legal differences between a deposition and a declaration.

17 Q. All right. And what did you see — where


18 did you see Mr. Jackson and the child at this point?


19 A. I saw them standing in the nude in the


20 middle area, and Jordie was on the right, and he was


21 on the left side. Standing, facing each other.


22 Q. Now, at the time that you saw that, what


23 were the lighting conditions inside of the rest


24 room?


25 A. Oh, it was litted up, just that area there.


26 Not where the shower’s at, but that area, it was —


27 the lights were on.


28 Q. Did you have any difficulty seeing in there? 5174


1 A. Not at all, sir.


2 Q. Now, from the point outside looking down


3 inside, what did you see go on between the


4 defendant, Mr. Jackson, and Jordan Chandler?


5 A. I saw that Mr. Jackson was caressing the


6 boy’s hair, he was kissing him on his head, and his


7 face, his lips. He started kissing him on the


8 shoulders and started going down to his nipples.


9 Started sucking his nipples. Started going down to


10 his penis and putting it in his mouth. And about


11 that time I just — I left.


12 Q. Okay. You say you saw him go down and do


13 what?


14 A. He put the little boy’s penis in his mouth.


15 Q. Did you actually see that?


16 A. Yes, sir.


17 Q. And then you left?


18 A. Yes, sir.


19 Q. Where did you go?


20 A. I went back to the barbecue area.


21 Q. Do you recall, after you left that area and


22 observed the things you’ve just related to the jury,


23 did you see Mr. Jackson with the child again that


24 evening?


25 A. Yes, sir, I did.


26 Q. And where were you when you saw them?


27 A. I was in the barbecue area.


28 Q. And where — where were they when you saw 5175


1 them again?


2 A. They were coming out of the rest room.

Chacon testified that he saw both Jackson and Jordan Chandler again around 30 minutes later as they left the rest room and went to the main house, and Jackson double locked the door, which was unusual because it was security’s job to do so. This was said in order to insinuate that Jackson had something to hide from security:

3 Q. Now, from the time that you had left, when


4 you had made your observations —

5 A. Yes, sir.


6 Q. — and you left, till the time that they


7 came out of the rest room, how much time had elapsed


8 during that period of time?


9 A. Probably 20 minutes or 30 minutes.


10 Q. Now, when they came out of the rest room,


11 could you describe what was going on?


12 A. Jordie was mounted on Michael’s back,


13 piggybacked, and they were headed for the back of


14 the — the kitchen door to the main house.


15 Q. Did the child, Jordan, have any clothing on?


16 A. He had — I believe it was like — it was a


17 towel. I believe it was a towel. It’s the type —


18 like it’s a rope, but it’s a towel.


19 Q. So a cloth robe or towel of some kind?


20 A. Yes, sir.


21 Q. Okay. And what was Mr. Jackson wearing, if


22 you recall?


23 A. Same.


24 Q. Could you see whether or not the child,


25 Jordan, had any other clothing on or not?


26 A. No, sir. I didn’t observe.


27 Q. And where did they go?


28 A. They went inside the house, the main house. 5176


1 Q. And when they went inside the main house,


2 did you hear or observe anything happen that you


3 felt was unusual?


4 A. Yes, Mr. Jackson double-locked the door, the


5 back door, which he normally never did. Security


6 always went inside to secure the house inside and


7 out.


8 Q. Now, you say — you described to the jury


9 that Mr. Jackson was kissing the boy —


10 A. Yes, sir.


11 Q. — that you observed.


12 How would you describe the kissing?


13 A. Well, it was very passionate. Very


14 passionately he was kissing him.


15 Q. And did you see his hands during the time he


16 was kissing him?


17 A. Yes, sir.


18 Q. Where were they?


19 A. They were all over his body.

Next, Chacon described Brett Barnes, and (whether this was intentional or not) he played right into the prosecution’s assertion that Jackson has a certain “type” by stating that Brett and Jordan looked so similar that he got them confused much of the time!

19 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Now, Mr. Chacon, are you


20 familiar with a child by the name — a young boy by


21 the name of Brett Barnes?


22 A. Yes, sir.


23 Q. And have you seen Mr. Barnes before?


24 A. Yes, sir.


25 Q. Have you seen him at the ranch before?


26 A. Yes, sir.


27 Q. Have you seen him in the company of the


28 defendant before? 5186


1 A. Yes, sir.


2 Q. On how many occasions?


3 A. Numerous occasions. I couldn’t give you a


4 figure.


5 Q. When Mr. Barnes was at the ranch, do you


6 recall whether or not his parents were with him?


7 A. At times they were; at other times they


8 weren’t.


9 Q. Now, with regard to the child you’ve


10 described and identified as Jordan Chandler, and the


11 child that you also saw as Brett Barnes, can you


12 tell us what they look like?


13 A. Well, to me, I always got them confused,


14 because they looked the same, similar. I know one


15 was a little bit shorter than the other. But, you


16 know, I always got them confused, but they looked —


17 they looked alike. Maybe one had hair a little bit


18 shorter than the other.


19 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;


20 narrative.


21 THE COURT: Overruled.


22 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Go ahead.


23 A. But I would get them — I would — they just


24 looked the same to me.

Chacon then testified that there was a second incident of sexual abuse that he witnessed between Jackson and Jordan Chandler.  Brett and Jordan were in the rec room again, and Chacon saw Jackson enter the room, kiss Jordan, and then they went out and rode Jackson’s Moon Rover:

1 Q. Now, during the time of your employment at


2 Neverland Valley Ranch — let me go back a second,


3 okay?


4 A. Yes, sir.


5 Q. With regard to the incidents that you just


6 described to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury


7 here involving Mr. Jackson and the child you’ve


8 identified as Jordan, correct?


9 A. Yes, sir.


10 Q. Are those — is that — is that what you


11 told the grand jury when you were interviewed back


12 in 1994?


13 A. Yes, sir, I did.


14 Q. Now, let’s go on for just a moment.


15 Did you see any other incidents involving


16 Mr. Jackson and the child you described as Jordan?


17 A. Yes, sir.


18 Q. With regard to the second — and let’s just


19 call it the second incident. With regard to the


20 second incident, do you recall how much time had


21 elapsed between the two incidents?


22 A. I don’t recall, sir.


23 Q. Could you give us some idea whether it was


24 weeks, months, or years?


25 A. Could have been weeks. Could have been a


26 month. I’m not positive. It’s been a while.


27 Q. Okay. And let me go back just for one


28 second before we move on to the second incident. 5189


1 Was there another thing that occurred on the


2 evening of the incident where you saw Mr. Jackson


3 and the child, Jordan, in the rest room together


4 that you had to actually make a report on?


5 A. Yes, sir.


6 Q. And what was — what was that?


7 A. Well —


8 Q. What happened?


9 A. Well, Kassim Abdool and myself, we were


10 going around the house, the back side of the house,


11 checking for anything that was open, the normal


12 security checkup that we would do around the house.


13 And we observed that the two French doors in the


14 middle of the house were wide open.


15 Q. And so a note was made of that to your


16 supervisor?


17 A. Yes, sir.


18 Q. Who was your supervisor?


19 A. Lieutenant Wade. Kassim Abdool had written


20 a report in regards to the French doors being open


21 and we didn’t close them.


22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.


23 THE COURT: Sustained.


24 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike.


25 THE COURT: After “Lieutenant Wade” is


26 stricken.


27 MR. SNEDDON: Okay.


28 Q. So a report was prepared of that? 5190


1 A. Yes, sir.


2 Q. Now, the incident about the French doors


3 being open, was that before or after you had

4 observed Mr. Jackson?


5 A. After.


6 Q. It was later that evening?


7 A. Yes, sir.


8 Q. All right. Now we can move on.


9 On the second incident – we’re going to call


10 it the second incident just for purposes of – what


11 was it — were you working graveyard again?


12 A. Yes, sir.


13 Q. And do you recall approximately what time of


14 the night it was?


15 A. It was in the evening, after ten o’clock


16 when I come on.


17 Q. Where were you?


18 A. I was in the pool area. Barbecue area, pool


19 area.


20 Q. And did you see Mr. Jackson that evening?


21 Let me go back. Did you see Jordan that evening?


22 A. Yes, I did.


23 Q. And the child you’ve identified as Brett,


24 did you see him that evening?


25 A. Yes, sir.


26 Q. Where were they?


27 A. They were in the rec room, playing with the


28 machines. 5191


1 Q. Was there any other children in the rec


2 room?


3 A. Yes, I noticed a little girl, probably five,


4 six years old. I didn’t know who she was, but I’m


5 sure she was probably a sister of one of the boys.


6 Q. And did you at some point become aware of


7 the fact — let me ask you this. Prior — when the


8 children were in the rec room playing, to your


9 knowledge, was Mr. Jackson on the premises?


10 A. No, sir.


11 Q. And did you become aware at some point in


12 time that Mr. Jackson was on the premises?


13 A. Yes, sir.


14 Q. And did you at some point see Mr. Jackson on


15 the premises?


16 A. Yes, sir.


17 Q. And where was Mr. Jackson the first time you


18 saw him?


19 A. He was coming out the back of his door —


20 the back door of his house, the main house.


21 Q. All right. And describe to the jury what


22 you observed Mr. Jackson to do.


23 A. He kind of ran up to the rec room, and he


24 was looking in from the outside, and he spotted


25 Jordie in one of those little — it’s like a car you


26 play, a racing car. And Mr. Jackson went around the


27 area where the rest rooms were at. There’s a back


28 door that goes into the rec room, and he located 5192


1 Jordie back there, and he went to where Jordie was


2 at and —


3 Q. Let’s just stop right there for just a


4 second, okay? You saw him go into the rec room


5 through a back door entrance?


6 A. Yes, sir.


7 Q. At the time you saw him go up to Jordan,


8 where were the other children? Could you see?


9 A. Yeah, they were upstairs playing games.


10 Q. Were the lights on inside of the rec room?


11 A. Yes, sir.


12 Q. Did you have any difficulty seeing in the


13 rec room?


14 A. Oh, no. No, sir.


15 Q. And where were you located at the time you


16 made these observations?


17 A. I was around the pool area, almost right


18 directly in front of the rec room.


19 Q. Now, at that point in time when you saw Mr.


20 Jackson go actually physically into the rec room,


21 describe to the jury what you saw occur.


22 A. Well, I saw him enter through the back door


23 of the rec room, and he went over to Jordie. He


24 bent over and said something to him, and then he


25 kissed him. And then they got out the back door and


26 they ran over to Mr. Jackson’s Moon Rover, and —


27 that was a golf cart that he had specially made for


28 himself, and they took off. 5193


1 Q. When you say he kissed him, did you see


2 where he kissed him?


3 A. Not exactly, but I know he kissed him.


4 Q. Now, at some point that evening, did you see


5 Mr. Jackson again?


6 A. Yes, sir. When they came back.


7 Q. When they came back. And where were you


8 when they came back?


9 A. I was in the barbecue area.


10 Q. And when they came back, where did they —


11 physically, where did you see them when you —


12 A. They pulled up to what they called the


13 breezeway, which is between the main office and the


14 main house, the outside office and the main house.


15 Q. Okay.


16 A. Behind the back.


17 Q. And what did — what — was anybody else


18 present when they drove up?


19 A. Kassim Abdool was coming from the security


20 at that time also.

As Chacon continues to recount his story, notice how he once again (either accidentally or deliberately) confused Jordan and Brett! He then states that he observed Jackson putting his hand down Jordan’s shorts into his crotch area.  When asked by Sneddon how long he thought this incident occurred, Chacon gave what is probably the widest margin of estimated time in the history of testimonies in the United States! He estimated that the incident lasted between 10 SECONDS and 20 MINUTES!!!!!

21 Q. So what did you see occur at that point in


22 time?


23 A. Well, I saw that Mr. Jackson and Brett —


24 I mean Jordie got off the cart. And Kassim noticed


25 that they were back, so he just headed back to the


26 security — security office.


27 And Mr. Jackson and the boy were in front of


28 the — they call it the Peter Pan display. It’s a 5194


1 window where Peter Pan lights up.


2 Q. Can you describe that? Where is that


3 located, what building?


4 A. Well, it’s the — it’s where the office is


5 at, behind the main house. It’s connected. There’s


6 a breezeway, but it’s connected. And there’s a


7 display window, or a window where this Peter Pan


8 display is at, where it lights up and you see


9 Tinkerbell flying around the window.


10 Q. Okay. Could you describe to the jury the


11 positions of the child and the defendant, Mr.


12 Jackson?


13 A. Well, they were looking at the display, the


14 Tinkerbell lighting up. And he was — Jordie was in


15 front, Mr. Jackson was in back, and he had his hands


16 over like this, and —


17 Q. You’re indicating over —


18 A. Over his back, towards the front.


19 Q. Okay.


20 A. And then he turned him around, kissed him.


21 It was passionate, but it didn’t last that long.


22 And then his hands went down to his private areas.


23 And then they ran inside the house.


24 Q. All right. You say he kissed him, and it


25 was not very long but it was passionate. Where did


26 he kiss the child?


27 A. In the mouth.

28 Q. And when you say “his hands went down,” 5195


1 where did they go — whose hands went down where?


2 A. Mr. Jackson’s hands went down to his crotch


3 area, the boy’s.


4 Q. The boy’s?


5 A. Yes, sir.


6 Q. And what — how long — how long do you


7 estimate that this incident took?


8 A. It was — it didn’t take very long.


9 Probably 10 seconds, 20 minutes. I’m not sure.


10 Q. And then at that point what did you see?


11 A. They went — ran inside the back, the inside


12 of the house.


13 Q. Both the child and Mr. Jackson?


14 A. Yes, sir.

In this excerpt, Chacon testified that he recounted these two incidents to the police during his sworn statement in 1994, and that he did not tell anyone else about what he saw (this was asked by Sneddon in order to counter the defense’s assertion that Chacon and other Neverland employees who claimed to witness abuse had sold their stories to tabloids). Chacon stated that he remained silent because he felt that nobody would believe him if he told them!

11 Now, prior to the time — let me ask you


12 this: With regard to the testimony you’ve just


13 related to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury here


14 this morning, did you also describe those incidents


15 to the — when you were asked to make a statement


16 under oath?


17 A. Yes, sir.


18 Q. When you were subpoenaed to the grand jury?


19 A. Yes, sir.


20 Q. Now, prior to the time that you appeared to


21 give a statement under oath as to the events that


22 you related here this morning, had you ever told


23 anyone about what you saw?


24 A. No, sir.


25 Q. Had you ever mentioned it to anybody?


26 A. No, sir.


27 Q. Why not?


28 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; relevance. 5198


1 THE COURT: Overruled.


2 You may answer.


3 THE WITNESS: Well, a lot of things went


4 through my mind, but one of the things was who would


5 believe me?




7 A. Well —


8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection.


9 THE COURT: Sustained.


10 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: What else went through your


11 mind?


12 MR. MESEREAU: Objection.


13 THE COURT: Sustained.


14 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Have you ever personally


15 met anybody by the name of Blanca Francia?


16 A. No, sir.


17 Q. Have you ever personally met anyone by the


18 name of Phillipe LeMarque?


19 A. No, sir.


20 Q. Have you met Wade Robeson?


21 A. Yes, sir.


22 Q. And how did you meet Wade Robeson?


23 A. Just by being on the property and — and him


24 being on the property.


25 Q. How often was he on the property?


26 A. Numerous times, but I can’t give you a


27 number of how many times.


28 Q. Mr. Chacon, when you left the ranch as an 5199


1 employee – okay? —


2 A. Yes, sir.


3 Q. Oh, I had another question before we get


4 there.


5 Were you armed?


6 A. No, sir.


7 Q. At the time that Mr. Jackson — during the


8 time that you became aware of the fact that Mr.


9 Jackson was under investigation, were there any


10 guards on the ranch property that were armed?


11 A. Yes, sir.


12 Q. And how many?


13 A. There was about four or five of them.


14 Q. Were they people who had been employed by


15 the ranch as security officers for — prior to that


16 time?


17 A. No, sir.

Chacon then stated that he was “forced” to leave Neverland in 1994 due to his cooperation with the authorities in the Chandler investigation, and that he unsuccessfully sued Jackson.

18 Q. Now, when you left the ranch, why did you


19 leave?


20 A. I was forced to leave —


21 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; relevance.


22 THE COURT: Overruled.


23 You may answer.


24 THE WITNESS: I was forced to leave because


25 of the OSS, the bodyguards that came on the property


26 that were armed, because we would not comply with


27 whatever they wanted us to do or say, because we


28 didn’t — we didn’t — we went to the grand jury, 5200


1 but they didn’t know what we had said so they had


2 put pressure on us to quit.


3 Q. BY MR. SNEDDON: Did you ever tell anybody


4 after you went to the grand jury what you had


5 testified to in front of the grand jury?


6 A. After?


7 Q. Yeah. Anybody associated with Mr. Jackson.


8 A. Yes.


9 Q. Who was that?


10 A. Kassim Abdool.


11 Q. And that’s the person you worked with?


12 A. Yes, sir.


13 Q. Other than that, anybody else?


14 A. No, sir.


15 Q. Did you at some point in time file a lawsuit


16 against Mr. Jackson, you and other members of the


17 staff?


18 A. Yes, sir, we did.


19 Q. And in that particular lawsuit, where was


20 that tried?


21 A. Santa Maria, right here, sir.


22 Q. And did you lose that lawsuit?


23 A. Yes, sir.


24 MR. SNEDDON: I have no further questions,


25 Your Honor.


26 THE COURT: Cross-examine?


27 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, please, Your Honor.

Here is an excerpt from Diane Dimond’s book about the OSS (Office of Special Services) employees who were hired to help bring extra security to Neverland in 1994:

Bill Bray, Michael Jackson’s longtime ultra-loyal head of security, was the one responsible for creating Michael Jackson’s so-called Office of Special Services, or OSS, at the Neverland Valley Ranch.

In December 1993, Bray had dispatched several of his OSS agents to live at the ranch for the specific purpose of taking the pulse of the employees there. This elite security group was instructed that they were the organization’s “eyes and ears” and as such they needed to report back everything they learned to either Bill Bray or his trusted assistant Bettye Bailey.

The OSS officers were Tony Coleman, Marcus Johnson, Jerome Johnson, and Jimmy Van Norman. Once they were assigned to the ranch, they enlisted another man, Andy Merritt, who already worked on the regular Neverland security detail. The officers brought new, sophisticated eavesdropping and surveillance equipment and a telephone-tapping system with them.

Michael Jackson had long had a penchant for listening in on others’ telephone calls, but this new setup was state-of-the-art and went well beyond what was needed for a simple eavesdropping session, according to several Neverland employees.

According to McManus, Melanie Bagnall, and Sandy Domz, the special security officers also engaged in almost constant and disgusting sexual banter and inappropriate advances.

Jackson’s former chambermaid, Adrian McManus, described one incident in which one of the officers from the OSS stopped her and another maid for no apparent reason as they were driving to one of the estate’s buildings in a golf cart. They were told that if they ever spoke to the tabloids the guards would “slice their throats and no one would ever find [their] body.”

To be continued:

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  1. elizabeth pamela walker permalink
    April 18, 2020 7:42 am

    amen x x x x x x x

  2. lynande51 permalink*
    December 7, 2012 7:54 pm

    Actually I think Jordan was forced into it by Evan threatening him, his Mom and sister. Probably even Michael.At the end of the tape between him and Dave he even admits that he had left a message on her phone that they thought was a threat. If so what was the threat? Then what I actually think happened is on July 16th when he took him to his dental office is when Jordan relented and said he would do it. Who knows what he did to Jordan, because even when Jordan was an adult he managed to hurt him and make him scared enough to seek a protective order. Funny thing is the only time Jordan would take anyone to court it was Evan. He fought going to court to accuse Michael.

    • nannorris permalink
      December 8, 2012 12:49 pm

      Another good point by you, Lynande51..He probably was forced into it because otherwise his father could have ended up in jail and he looked on the bright side of it(life long financial security ) and learned to live with it…
      I dont like the Sullivan book but it is interesting that he would say that once Evan was dead, Jordan thought he could put this whole thing behind him and it would die down……
      I would have thought ,if ,MJ was a criminal ,, he would have been more ,relieved, when, Michael passed , not his father, who supposedly rescued him from the clutches of MJ..
      Why would it die down if HE was the person that actually accused MJ unless he thought the majority of people realized it was between MJ and Evan….and that he was just a pawn.
      The other thing that I thought of was …why would he and Evan fight over money…if he is fabulously wealthy..thanks to his father.
      If Evan had secured this wealth for JC,out of concern for his son..I would think he would let Evan spend as much as he wanted….unless JC thought he had given something up himself, like protect his father..

  3. lynande51 permalink*
    December 6, 2012 6:36 pm

    DID anyone catch on that Jordan couldn’t tell how many times it had happened but was eager to say ” but I can tell you where it happened”. Does anyone find that unusual?

    • nannorris permalink
      December 6, 2012 10:05 pm

      Yeah,,,I find it unusual…How can you not know how many times, that the, not only, world famous MJ AND your big time idol made sexual advances on you..? .This kid is completely full of sh@t.The big question for me is did he go along willingly with this charade because he was as greedy as his parents , or was forced into it.
      I tend to think it was a family project …JC obviously has no remorse what so ever…just hanging out surfing and skiing counting his cash..I see that sonnet friend of his is involved with the O for Overstock company..wonder if he has an interest in that company.pft

    • Rodrigo permalink
      December 6, 2012 11:22 pm

      I just noticed how he was so eager to get the details out as quick as he could. Shouldn’t it have been painful and difficult for him to divulge this terrible ordeal to the doc? No guilt, no shame, no pain, no nothing. The whole interview was unnaturally flat of raw emotion on Jordan’s part, a supposed victim of psychologically damaging abuse.

    • Rodrigo permalink
      December 6, 2012 11:28 pm

      And what about Gavin’s lack of anything when talking to the police? Reliving “painful” experiences…and cooly tossing something into a bin?

      His joking in court?

      I dont know what when on with these kids, but I know for sure, they weren’t molested.

  4. aldebaranredstar permalink
    December 6, 2012 10:40 am

    @stacy, yes, I know that. That’s why I wrote , “Jordan was not there when Chacon said he saw him in 92.” My point is not about that. I was saying that Jordan did claim that he was abused at Neverland, which MJJ Justice Project said did not happen.

  5. stacy2 permalink
    December 6, 2012 8:31 am


    Chacon claimed to have seen Jordie get molested between late 1992 and early 1993, but according to Jordie, molestation did not occur until May 1993, which totally contradicts Chacon’s story.

  6. aldebaranredstar permalink
    December 5, 2012 10:48 pm

    @MjjJustice Project: “So Jordan wasn’t even at Neverland during the time Chacon claims of witnessing sexual assault nor did Jordan ever claim in his extremely detailed declaration that any molestation occurred at Neverland Ranch.”

    Jordan was not there when Chacon said he saw him in 92 BUT Jordan DID say that the molestation happened at Neverland. It’s on page 26 of the Gardener interview.
    From the interview:
    “G. So he put his mouth on your penis?
    J. Yes. Then, um, from that point, till the end of our relationship, he masturbated me with his mouth. And that’s as far as it went.
    G. About how many occasions did he do that?
    J. I don’t know but I can tell you where.
    G. Where did it take place?
    J. At my father’s house, his Hideout, my mother’s house, and Neverland.”

  7. stacy2 permalink
    December 5, 2012 10:19 pm

    It’s amazing to me how none of these people were charged with perjury. They all got on the witness stand and flat out lied their asses off. I don’t know how Michael survived sitting in that courtroom every single day listening to this foolishness. The 2005 trial was no doubt a conspiracy. All the prosecution witnesses were coached to fabricate stories about Jackson and the list goes on..

    • Julie permalink
      December 13, 2012 3:12 pm

      I believe Sneddon wanted a conviction so much that he promised these people immunity if they would lie on Michael.

  8. lynande51 permalink*
    December 3, 2012 10:27 pm

    They were told that if they ever spoke to the tabloids the guards would “slice their throats and no one would ever find [their] body.”

    Oh so here’s how it works. The OSS threaten them not to talk to tabloids about Michael and young boys but they don’t threaten them not to go to the police. Yeah whatever.

    • nannorris permalink
      December 4, 2012 12:07 am

      Good Point..unbelievable that the DA could keep a straight face by the time they got to court

  9. Rodrigo permalink
    December 3, 2012 10:01 pm

    “When Michael Jackson opened the bedroom door for his head of security, Chacon noticed his boss was “sweaty and his pajama bottoms were opened.”  There were children –two young boys- in the room with Jackson.  Jordan Chandler was one of them.” 

    Jordan made it specifically clear that no acts of whatever, were ever performed with any other kid in his and Michael’s company. So there’s another lie.

    • lynande51 permalink*
      December 3, 2012 10:20 pm

      Yep theres another one. He said Michael told him not that he did it with them. Ooops huh.

    • Rodrigo permalink
      December 3, 2012 10:59 pm

      They just couldn’t help but trip themselves up lol
      But thankfully that’s what lies eventually do in the end.

  10. lynande51 permalink*
    December 3, 2012 2:47 pm

    Do you want to hear what her claim of sexual harassment was? Per her testimony James ” Jimmy ” Van Norman called her once and asked her what kind of underwear she was wearing.
    That ranks right up there with Jason Francia’s claim of being tickled too close to his private parts.
    She started working in August of 1990, took over for the fired Blanca May of 1991. The very day that she took the job as Blanca’s replacement was the day that she claimed Michael threatened her. She said he told her he could make her disappear.Here is her testimony about the threat and how long she worked there after.

    2 A. Because when — when I had taken over the
    3 job for Mr. Jackson’s room, Mr. Jackson had
    4 threatened me.
    5 Q. What did he say to you?
    6 A. He had told me, “You know, Adrian, if you
    7 ever say or you do something that I don’t like, all
    8 I have to do is tell Bill Bray or Norma Stakos, and
    9 they will take care of you, but it wouldn’t come
    10 from me. “
    11 Q. Were you concerned about that statement?
    12 A. I was very concerned with that.
    13 Q. That was what, three years earlier?
    14 A. That was right when I took the bedroom.
    15 Q. Why did you continue to work there after
    16 that statement?
    17 A. I don’t know. I — I got caught up, I
    18 guess, in — my husband was laid off, and we had a
    19 house payment, and I just stayed.
    20 Q. What was your salary at Neverland?
    21 A. I worked 40 hours a week, but I started at
    22 7.50 an hour.
    23 Q. What was your salary at the time that you
    24 left Neverland?
    25 A. I left at 8.86 an hour.
    26 Q. In the four years, your salary went up $1.80
    28 A. Yes. 5325

    I mean really for 7.50 an hour you can’t go to the police with your eyewitness accounts? You have to not tell anyone for 3 1/2 years and then tell Victor Gutierrez and Kevin Smith of Splash news. God knows they are the first ones that will keep your identity a secret to protect you.LOL.

    • nannorris permalink
      December 3, 2012 5:17 pm

      I noticed that too..These people are not making a lot of money, so why stay if you are uncomfortable?
      Well, I guess she would make up for the low wage by stealing all his stuff.
      She did take the Elvis drawing MJ did and sold it to a tabloid , i believe and I think another worker said she went to her house and she had all kinds of mj stuff..
      I would say that was how some of them subsidized their pay.
      the Sullivan book said that when some of his workers would be sent to town to buy an item , they would just add on their own items to the bill.
      Again…..I do not believe for a moment by the time this hot mess went to trial, that these prosecutors still believed he was guilty..
      They just went through with it anyway, trying to push a square peg into a round hole…

    • Julie permalink
      December 13, 2012 3:14 pm

      Which explains why these lowlifes would go on Hard Copy and elsewhere to sell stories (lies) on Michael. Free money for lying.

  11. December 3, 2012 12:00 pm

    My question: As for McManus’s claim that she and other female staff members were sexually harassed and threatened with the “slicing of their throats” — did she remain in the employ at the ranch AFTER these death threats were made?

    Sanemjfan answer:
    “Yes, they all remained employed at Neverland until the summer of 1994. They stayed for several months after the hiring of the OSS staff.”

    Wow.. well this defies logic as well eh? This is exactly the same thing as Janet claiming she was prevented from leaving Neverland Ranch and repeatedly left for her spa visits and returned back happily “detailed and waxed”

    • lynande51 permalink*
      December 3, 2012 2:59 pm

      All five of them quit without notice on July 31st 1994. Quite a coincidence don’t you think?They just stopped showing up for work and then made theri claims that they were forced to quite because of “what they knew”. You know what, that would have been a good time to talk to the police instead of Gutierrez and Kevin Smith.

  12. lynande51 permalink*
    December 3, 2012 8:24 am

    Not only that but you see the photo of Chacon right? He’s about three times the size of Michael. So was Abdool and belive it or not so was McManus. Are you kidding me?These people wanted the world to believe the impossible and that is that NONE of them reacted like a normal responsible person would and bust in there and say something.
    Here’s another flaw in their theory. If they had stopped him wouldn’t Michael have puchased their silence if they didn’t tell. At least that is the thinking of the opposition. Michael supposedly paid off all these boys and their parents but these people who say they witnessed it never turned him in and were never offered money.Why is that?For that matter why not just settle the case out of court before it became public? Why not do that instead of spending all that money on a case not certain of the outcome, not knowing the jury yet and paying your lawyers too. Seriously these people are theones that need their heads examined not a Michael Jackson fan. Apparently we are much more logical than our opposition.

  13. lynande51 permalink*
    December 3, 2012 8:22 am

    Do you know what is the most ridiculous and unbelievable part of the story is this. According to McManus, Chacon, Abdool and Blanca Francia, Michael had the alarms at his door from the time he moved in. Sneddon and company said they were to alert him when someone was coming into his bedroom so he would stop what he was doing. Then all of them say that the alarms are going off when they walk trhough the door but just when he needs them Michael ignores them defeating the whole purpose of having them if you were to believe the prosecutors.WTF?
    It was supposed to have happened with McManus, Francia and even Star Arvizo said they were there. Why would he have them there at all if that was the case?

  14. nannorris permalink
    December 3, 2012 1:05 am

    this part..

    24 THE WITNESS: I was forced to leave because

    25 of the OSS, the bodyguards that came on the property

    26 that were armed, because we would not comply with

    27 whatever they wanted us to do or say, because we

    28 didn’t — we didn’t — we went to the grand jury, 5200

    1 but they didn’t know what we had said so they had

    2 put pressure on us to quit.
    Not only have you supposedly witnessed terrible acts and STUCK AROUND to see more at a later date…
    you have to be FORCED to leave ??
    If I remember correctly , these guards werent pulling in big paychecks ..why would anyone stay and allow children to be abused right in front of them …..NOBODY would..
    And if you were going to stay , and you thought no one would believe you..why wouldnt you bring a camera to get proof your boss is abusing children..Unbelievable..

    It would be almost laughable if this garbage didnt destroy MJ life..
    I absolutely agree Sneddon knew this was a lie and sanctioned it . told this guy to make sure he said JC looked like the Australian kid , in case what he said was brought out ..
    Sneddon had to have known this was all a lie.
    He knew JC never said anything happened at Neverland.
    His father would never had taken the chance of saying something did , because there were too many people there.
    He needed to keep it to places where he might have been able to be alone with him..
    the vasaline stuff is absolutely disgusting and at the same time ridiculous.., that anyone in their right mind would have believed this garbage …It is incredibly horrible that this stuff was reported as fact by the media..

  15. December 2, 2012 8:36 pm

    So Jordan wasn’t even at Neverland during the time Chacon claims of witnessing sexual assault nor did Jordan ever claim in his extremely detailed declaration that any molestation occurred at Neverland Ranch. Barnes sat on the stand and tesitfied nothing ever happened to him. Nuf said.

    And regardless of which boy was a supposed vicitim, why has no one questioned the audacity of Dimond, Sneddon, Kassim, and Chacon who wanted people to suspend logic and believe that :

    1) Michael Jackson would ASK a security guard to bring him a jar of vaseline so that the guard could witness the boys in the room and be on high alert.

    If the maid said all the rooms were stocked with this vaseline as a standard item, you’d think Michael would have secured one himself surreptictously as possible.

    2) For some odd reason BOTH Kassim and Chacon went together to deliver the said “jar of vaseline”

    Why? Two men were needed for this task? Logically one guard would hardly need help to deliver it and as “security” was the function of both of these men it would seem that at least ONE should have remained at his post to secure the grounds.

    The only reason BOTH of them had to make this delivery together was to cooraborate each other’s lies.

    3) Both of these men witnessed Michael “sweaty with pajama bottoms open” and asking for “jar of vaseline” with boys in the bedroom, but don’t immediately remove these boys from the bedroom by whatever means possible to protect them.

    Clearly they weren’t too “disturbed by what they had seen” otherwise it defies all moral conscience of not one but TWO men.

    4) Chacon does not immediately stop the supposed molestation of Jordan in the shower he claims to have witnessed for what seems to be by his description an inordinate amount of time.

    Michael Jackson was half the size of Chacon and clearly no match for any kind of physical intervention on his part. The Santa Maria police should have been called immediately.

    5) Michael Jackson was so deluded in his control of his security force that he flagrantly advertised his sexual escapades by openly displaying the supposed victim to the security guards by sitting in a jacuzzi, and then molesting this same child in a public shower that is not secured nor secluded from observation.

    The only thing Michael didn’t do was send out printed invitations to his full security and household staff which included pics and bios of each boy he intended to victimize and have big arrows printed on their T-shirts pointing up..with the word “next victim” emblazoned in red underneath, as he walked them about the property for all to see. It is almost too ridiculous for words.

    As for McManus’s claim that she and other female staff members were sexually harassed and threatened with the “slicing of their throats” — did she remain in the employ at the ranch AFTER these death threats were made?

    • sanemjfan permalink
      December 2, 2012 11:25 pm

      As for McManus’s claim that she and other female staff members were sexually harassed and threatened with the “slicing of their throats” — did she remain in the employ at the ranch AFTER these death threats were made?

      Yes, they all remained employed at Neverland until the summer of 1994. They stayed for several months after the hiring of the OSS staff.

  16. lynande51 permalink*
    December 2, 2012 5:26 pm

    During most of 1992 and during the time of the incidents set forth in this offer of proof, Mr. Chacon worked the graveyard shift from 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. at Neverland Valley Ranch. He recalled an unusual incident in 1992, which he believes occurred in the spring because the weather was nice. At the time, Chacon was engaged in putting away the golf carts. He believes he started this project between 10:30 and 11:00 p.m.

    Here is the first lie and the one that Sneddon sanctioned. He knew that Chacon was lying about this incident and prompted him in 2005 to change this very testimony. However in his testimony and in this brief there is a grave error.
    Jordan had not yet Michael in the early spring of 1992. He met him at the earliest in May of 1992 but he had not yet visited Neverland until late February of 1993. This boy could not possibly be Jordan. It was Brett that he made the statement to the police about and it was his statement that prompted the Prosecutor to make a trip to Australia in 1994 to “interview” Brett at his parents home. He lied. Sneddon knew it and Sneddon helped him change his story to Jordan so he could testify to this story that would make such salacious headlines all over the world.
    This is the Motion filed by Sneddon to limit the testimony of Lizbeth Marie Barnes, Bretts Mother. In it you will read that a security guard made a statement to them that said that Michael had performed oral sex on their son.

    Click to access 050405pltmotlimexcl1994.pdf

    There was only one other security guard, his story was to talk about vaseline. This has to be the story that included Brett. Then suddenly it has Jordan in 2005 at a time when Jordan could not possibly have been there. Sneddon sanctioned this and had Chacon say that the “boys looked so much alike” to make ut seem like he had simply made a mistake. The truth is that he could not have seen him do anything to Jordan either considering the time frame Michael and Jordan were not together at Neverland after the WMA’s in May of 1993. They were in Monaco, Florida, new York and Junes House. The whole thing was a lie and it was sanctioned by the prosecution and he knew it.

    Here is the original Statement of Declination Issued by Sneddon and Garcetti

    Statement of Declination: Statements from LA County and SB County (Sept 21 1994)
    September 21, 1994
    It became clear at the inception of the investigation into child molestation allegations against Michael Jackson that those allegations involved conduct that occurred in both Los Angeles and Santa Barbara Counties. Therefore, the Los Angeles Police Department, the Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Department, the Santa Barbara District Attorney’s Office and the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office participated in a joint investigation of those allegations.
    After approximately one year, the investigation is now concluded. During the course of the investigation, approximately four hundred witnesses were contacted (some more than once) and additional thirty witnesses were called before grand juries in Los Angeles and Santa Barbara. Hundreds of “clues” from the public were probed. Much time was spent pursing potentially exonerating evidence as well as inculpatory evidence. Several leads were explored which later turned out to be false.
    The first alleged victim who came forward and who was the catalyst for this criminal investigation is the same individual who filed and settled a civil lawsuit against Mr. Jackson. The factual allegations underlying the civil lawsuit are identical to those which would support a criminal prosecution.
    However, at the present time this alleged victim has chosen to assert his rights under Code of Civil Procedure section 1219 and has declined to testify. This decision was not communicated to either prosecutorial agency until July 6, 1994. Until that time, the alleged victim had indicated his possible willingness to testify and we continued with our investigation.
    During the last several months, investigatory efforts uncovered additional allegations of sexual molestation occurring between Mr. Jackson and a second boy. The particular events described occurred solely in Santa Barbara County. Therefore, any filing decision on those allegations would involve Santa Barbara.
    As to those particular allegations, Santa Barbara County declines to file at this time, because of the inability of law enforcement to interview the alleged victim, because that child is beyond the reach of the court process, and because of the child’s prior general denial of any wrongdoing
    The investigation also revealed the existence of a third alleged victim who has been in psychological therapy since his disclosure to police in early November of 1993. He has alleged that Michael Jackson molested him on three occasions. Two of those occasions allegedly occurred in Los Angeles County beyond the statute of limitations, and the third occasion, within the statute, allegedly occurred in Santa Barbara County. In light of the primary alleged victim’s decision not to testify, and because of the third alleged victim’s reluctance to testify and in consideration of his psychological well-being, no charges relating to the third alleged victim will be pursued at this time.
    Another aspect of the investigation involved accounts from several witnesses who allegedly viewed Mr. Jackson inappropriately touching children other than the alleged victims mentioned above. At no time did any of the children named confirm that such conduct occurred, and the credibility of those third party accounts is compromised by the fact that some of the sources of these accounts profited monetarily by selling their stories to the media.
    In conclusion, we decline to file charges relating to any of the alleged victims at this time because of the legal unavailability of the primary alleged victim. We emphasize that our decision is not based on any issue of credibility of victims. Should circumstances change or should new evidence develop within the statute of limitations, this decision will be re-evaluated in light of the evidence available at such time.

    This is also avaialbe on MJFacts website with of course the incrimination of Chacon missing. I got this original one from the now defunct ATG book website that went with Ray Chandlers book. At the time the website was launched in Spetember of 2004 the testimony had not yet changed because prosecutors thought that Jordan might testify if they asked. He did not.

    • Rodrigo permalink
      December 3, 2012 11:37 pm

      Off topic, but the way certain people react to that interview is hilarious.

      Michael laughs at the guy and is genuinely shocked at what he’s saying to him. He’s thinking
      “Can you believe him?”

      People hark on
      “He’s smirking. He’s not denying it. He’s guilty”

      To the Martin Bashir documentary where Michael genuinely says he would cut his wrists than harm a child. To –
      “He’s denying it. He’s lying. He’s guilty”

      Can he not do anything right by these people?

      And I love at what their beliefs are.
      “Michael thought what he was doing was harmless to the child. It was love for him”

      Right…but he laughs at being accused? It doesn’t hurt him? If he was guilty, he laughs at it? He finds harming children funny?

      People and their bull**** idea’s.

    • Rodrigo permalink
      December 3, 2012 11:42 pm

      And that was directed at the guys over at Topix…MAKE UP YOUR MINDS. He’s either this or he’s that. You can’t have it both ways.

      And you can’t have him as both a vindictive mastermind, and all the while doing it was a messed up junkie…MAKE UP YOUR MIND GUYS.


  1. April 8th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Adrian McManus (Cross Examination) and Phillip LeMarque (Direct & Cross Examination), Part 1 of 3 « Michael Jackson Vindication 2.0
  2. April 5th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Jason Francia (Cross Examination), Kris Kallman, Blanca Francia (Direct & Cross Examination) « Michael Jackson Vindication 2.0

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