April 14th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Janet Arvizo (Direct Examination), Part 2 of 3
After an endless conversation about the passports, birth certificates, and other documents that were needed for the trip to Brazil, Zonen questioned Janet about her interactions with Marc Schaffel, whom she claimed coerced her into doing the rebuttal video with “the Germans”. She and Vinnie went to Schaffel’s house to pick up passports, and then returned to Neverland, and stayed there until February 25th, 2003, when she and her family were taken to the Calabasas Hotel to stay at as they did more shopping for the trip to Brazil.
19 Q. Now, at some later time, you retained an
20 attorney by the name of Bill Dickerman?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. All right. And did he request, by way of
23 letter that was shown to you, to have these
24 passports returned?
25 A. Yes, he did.
26 Q. Were they, in fact, ever returned to you?
27 A. No, they were never returned to me.
28 Q. Prior to today? 6240
1 A. Prior to today.
2 Q. Have you ever seen them?
3 A. I haven’t seen them.
4 Q. Where did you stay after you left on the
5 21st? Where did you go after the 21st of February;
6 do you recall?
7 A. Neverland. After Marc Schaffel’s
8 application, I went to Neverland.
9 Q. Let me ask you about Marc Schaffel. Who is
10 Marc Schaffel? Who do you understand Marc Schaffel
11 to be?
12 A. They just — I know now per the
13 investigation, it’s different.
14 MR. MESEREAU: Objection.
15 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Hold on. At the time, did
16 you know the name “Marc Schaffel”?
17 A. No, I didn’t. But I had spoken to a Marc
18 when the Germans were there.
19 Q. All right.
20 A. Marc —
21 Q. In person —
22 A. Marc Schaffel.
23 Q. All right. In person or over the telephone?
24 A. Over the telephone.
25 Q. Did this person identify himself to you?
26 A. Yes. He said he was Marc Schaffel.
27 Q. He said he was Marc Schaffel?
28 A. Yeah, and then that’s the one that I told 6241
1 about the audio you can hear. And I said he was
2 very unkind, because he was saying I had to do the
3 video, and I thought he was one of the Germans.
4 Q. This was a person you spoke to prior to
5 doing the rebuttal video?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And he was talking to you about the video?
8 A. No. He said I had to do the video. And
9 this is before Jesus.
10 Q. All right. Now, at some point on the 21st
11 you were taken to a home?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did somebody tell you that was Marc
14 Schaffel’s home?
15 A. Yes, Vinnie did.
16 Q. Did you meet Marc Schaffel?
17 A. No, I didn’t.
18 Q. To this day, have you ever seen a picture of
20 A. To this day I’ve never met him.
21 Q. All right. What were you doing at Marc
22 Schaffel’s house?
23 A. Picking up the applications for passports.
24 Q. Were you with your kids or by yourself?
25 A. No, I was by myself.
26 Q. With Vinnie?
27 A. With Vinnie and the people that would —
28 Q. You’re saying there was another car of 6242
2 A. There was always someone following us.
3 Q. Did you know who those people were?
4 A. I didn’t know at the time.
5 Q. Could you tell how many people were in that
7 A. Yes, sometimes there was two. And sometimes
8 there was three. And sometimes there was one.
9 Q. Did you recognize any of them at any time?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You already knew Asaf’s appearance.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you know if Asaf was ever one of them?
14 A. No, I just happened to see Asaf one other
15 time, and – I think so – that was during that
16 Calabasas period.
17 Q. All right. Where did you go on the 21st?
18 Where did you stay after that?
19 A. On the 21st, I stood at Neverland.
20 Q. And for how long were you at Neverland?
21 A. Until the 25th.
22 Q. And on the 25th, you went where?
23 A. To the hotel. I don’t know if it’s hotel,
24 motel, in Calabasas.
25 Q. All right. Do you remember the name of it?
26 A. I think it’s Country Inn & Suites.
27 Q. In Calabasas?
28 A. Yes. 6243
Zonen decided to focus on Janet’s stay at Neverland in between the rebuttal video and the Calabasas trip, and he questioned her on the sleeping arrangements of her children. Star and Gavin slept in the main house, and Janet claimed to have never left her guest unit during that entire period, except for two separate occasions.
On February 25th, 2003, Janet and Gavin were taken to the hospital by Vinnie Amen so that Gavin could deliver his urine sample to the doctors:
1 Q. All right. Let me go back to that period of
2 time from the 21st to the 25th that you were at
3 Neverland. Where did you stay during that time?
4 A. In the guesthouse.
5 Q. And were your children there as well?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where did Davellin stay?
8 A. In the guesthouse next to me.
9 Q. Not your unit?
10 A. And — and I don’t mean to say “guesthouse.”
11 It’s actually one building divided into four, and
12 they’re actually just bedrooms.
13 Q. Four separate units in a building?
14 A. Four separate units?
15 Q. Yes. And you had one of the units?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And Davellin had another?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where were the boys?
20 A. The boys were in the house.
21 Q. And that’s Gavin and Star you’re referring
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. They were staying in the house?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Did they stay in the house the entire time?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Do you know if Michael Jackson was there 6244
1 during that period of time?
2 A. At that time, I don’t know.
3 Q. Do you have a recollection of seeing him
4 during that time?
5 A. At that time, I don’t remember.
6 Q. Were you seeing your sons throughout that
8 A. No.
9 Q. The 21st through the 25th?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Where were you during the day?
12 A. In the guesthouse.
13 Q. Did you ever leave?
14 A. Not really.
15 Q. Where did you take your meals?
16 A. In — in there.
17 Q. In the guesthouse?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Did you ever go into the main house for
21 A. No. No.
22 Q. Did you ever walk around the property?
23 A. Um, I think in that whole period from when I
24 returned, from the 21st on, I’m being generous if I
25 say — if I may, my best estimate, if I say twice.
26 Q. “Twice” what?
27 A. I walked out into Neverland. And that’s my
28 best — and we’re talking about the period from the 6245
1 21st on.
2 Q. Were you having — were you spending time
3 with your sons during that four-day period?
4 A. No.
5 Q. On the 25th, where did you go?
6 A. On the 25th?
7 Q. Yes. The 25th of February.
8 A. Okay. The 25th of February, went to my
9 son’s doctor’s appointment. Then from there, I went
10 to — to Jamie’s, and then from there the hotel.
11 Q. All right. Let’s talk about the first two
12 that you mentioned.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. There was an appointment you had, I assume
15 with Gavin; is that right?
16 A. Yes, I did. And Vinnie was there.
17 Q. And Vinnie went with you?
18 A. And the people that were following us.
19 Q. And another vehicle behind you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did you go with your other two children?
22 A. All three of my kids.
23 Q. All of your kids went?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The doctor’s appointment was where?
26 A. In Kaiser. That was his cancer specialist,
27 his oncologist.
28 Q. And did they make another appointment for 6246
1 him or for testing at that time?
2 A. Yes. Yes, they did.
3 Q. What was that appointment?
4 A. That was — I don’t know what the correct
5 medical term is, but Gavin has to go — yes, he is a
6 healthy boy, but he’s got a lot of medical issues,
7 and they have to watch out for — and so they — I
8 don’t know what this one is called. I don’t know
9 whether it’s called a CT scan, ultrasound. The main
10 purpose of that was to check his kidney, because
11 there’s a constant concern that Gavin could possibly
12 lose his kidney.
13 Q. Is this a concern that exists today?
14 A. It still exists today.
15 Q. All right. Now, the — he had an
16 appointment with the doctor. So he actually visited
17 with the doctor on the 25th?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. During that visit, where did Vinnie go?
20 A. Oh, Vinnie was right there.
21 Q. What is “right there”?
22 A. With us, with me, the whole entire time with
23 us. And usually our doctor visits, me and the kids
24 are always like a group, you know.
25 Q. All right.
26 A. Because when I go to the doctors’
27 appointments, yes, I — you know, Sergeant Mommy.
28 But I’m always like this, weak in my knees, because 6247
1 I never know what is going to happen, I have to
2 have, after the visit. So prior to the visit, I am
3 holding my breath.
4 Q. Did Gavin actually have an examination with
5 the doctor?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I assume that was separate from where Vinnie
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you present during —
11 A. No, Vinnie was right there. Vinnie had
12 expressed to me that there was something they could
13 listen to me.
14 Q. I don’t understand what “right there” means.
15 A. Right there. Right outside the doctor’s
17 Q. Is that where you were?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So he was with you?
20 A. And he was with the kids.
21 Q. All right. And the kids were there, too?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is this a waiting room of some kind?
24 A. No, it isn’t. It’s actually the hallway
25 outside the doctor’s room.
26 Q. When you left the doctor’s office on the
27 25th, did you have an appointment to have an
28 appointment to return to the doctor at some time in 6248
1 the future?
2 A. Yes. I —
3 Q. Was that for an examination or a test?
4 A. No, that was a test. Purely a test. No
5 doctor visit whatsoever.
6 Q. And what day was that?
7 A. March 10th.
8 Q. What was the test?
9 A. I don’t know. Like I told you, Mr. Zonen, I
10 don’t know whether it was one of those CT scans or
11 ultrasound. The main purpose of that test was to
12 check on his kidney.
13 Q. All right. Was that the day that you were
14 supposed to turn in a sample of — a collection of
15 his urine?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, let’s go back to this, now, again.
18 A. A 24-hour collection.
After the trip to the hospital, Vinnie made a stop at the Laugh Factory, where Janet went inside to meet with attorney William Dickerman and comedian Jamie Masada for 20 minutes, while he, Davellin, and Gavin waited in the car. Janet got ahead of herself – again! – during her testimony, and Zonen told her to “hold on a second”.
19 Q. A 24-hour collection. We’re going to cover
20 this in just a moment. Let’s go back to the 25th.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. You said that you had a doctor’s appointment
23 with all of you, and then you went to, you said,
24 The Laugh Factory?
25 A. Yes, I did.
26 Q. What was your reason for going to The Laugh
28 A. Okay. We were already on Sunset Boulevard. 6249
1 And the Laugh Factory is not that far from Kaiser,
2 so I tried to — I tried to — I’m — I’m trying —
3 all along through this period, I’m trying to reach
4 people to help me, to let them know the best that I
5 knew at that time, because it kept evolving into
6 more and more escalation.
7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay. That’s my answer,
10 THE COURT: Just a moment, please.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 THE COURT: I think it was nonresponsive.
13 MR. ZONEN: I think it was.
14 Q. Now, you were going to go to The Laugh
15 Factory. Excuse me, I’m sorry. Were you expecting
16 to meet somebody at The Laugh Factory?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who were you expecting to meet at The Laugh
20 A. I was expecting to meet just Jamie. And I
21 think that Jamie on his own called Mr. Dickerman.
22 Q. Did you know who Mr. Dickerman was prior to
23 that day?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And how did you know who Mr. Dickerman was?
26 A. Because Jamie had told me that Mr. Dickerman
27 could possibly maybe help put a stop to Gavin’s
28 being ridiculed and called “gay” and all these 6250
2 Q. Do you mean the television show?
3 A. Yes, because they were making no effort.
4 Q. Did you understand Mr. Dickerman to be an
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Did you understand him to be Jamie’s
8 attorney, Jamie Masada’s?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Did you tell Vinnie in advance that you were
11 going to go visit with a lawyer?
12 A. No, I didn’t.
13 Q. Why not?
14 A. Because I was — there was — there was
15 consequences, consequences for going out of their
17 Q. Okay. When you arrived at The Laugh
18 Factory, what did you tell Vinnie was the purpose of
19 going to The Laugh Factory?
20 A. Just — just visit Jamie.
21 Q. Did you tell him who Jamie was?
22 A. Yeah, I had told him Jamie’s a good friend,
23 and that’s about it. And so the second I went in
24 there, there was — in two minutes I had to leave.
25 Q. All right. You went in there. Did you go
26 in with any of your children?
27 A. I think it was one of them. He had two of
28 them stay with him. And then now Frank’s on the 6251
1 phone going crazy because I’m talking to Jamie,
2 so —
3 Q. Hold on a second. Hold on a second.
4 You’re inside The Laugh Factory right now?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How do you know Frank’s on the phone with
8 A. Because Davellin came in running and said,
9 “Mommy, let’s” — “Frank’s on the phone, and he’s
10 mad and he’s going crazy.”
11 Q. All right. How long were you inside talking
12 to Jamie at that time?
13 A. My gosh, it was like — not that long. Not
14 that long.
15 Q. What is “not that long”? Five minutes? Ten
16 minutes? 20 minutes? Give us a sense of it.
17 A. My best estimate — my best estimate, less
18 than maybe ten minutes.
19 Q. Less than ten minutes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. And that’s my best estimate.
After leaving the Laugh Factory, the Arvizos were taken to the Calabasas Country Inn from February 25th through March 2nd. Janet testified that they were told by Vinnie that they couldn’t go back to Neverland because “the killers” had arrived there, and it wasn’t safe. She called her friend Louise Palanker while at the hotel, but of course she didn’t call the police, and this is because she believed that all of her calls were being monitored.
23 Q. Where did you go after that? This is the
24 25th. Where did you go after that?
25 A. Then they — then Vinnie had told me that —
26 do you just want me to tell — not what happened
28 Q. Yes, just where did you go after you left 6252
1 The Laugh Factory?
2 A. The motel.
3 Q. The motel in Calabasas?
4 A. Yes. Or hotel, the Country Inn.
5 Q. How many days did you stay in Calabasas?
6 A. The 25th through the 2nd of March.
7 Q. That’s a 28-day month, February.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So you were there five days?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. 25th, 26th, 20 —
12 A. And I didn’t know I was going to stay there.
13 Q. Did they tell you why you were there as
14 opposed to going back to Neverland?
15 A. Yes, Vinnie had said that the killers had
16 arrived at — at Neverland, so we weren’t going to
17 be able to go back. We had absolutely no kind of
18 piece of luggage with us. Nothing. That was a
19 complete surprise.
20 Q. So —
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. — where did Vinnie say you were going after
23 the Calabasas hotel?
24 A. After?
25 Q. Yes.
26 A. Not during?
27 Q. Well, while you were at Calabasas at that
28 hotel, Vinnie told you that it was not safe to go 6253
1 back to Neverland?
2 A. That’s right.
3 Q. All right. Did he tell you where you were
4 going to go?
5 A. We were going to a motel.
6 Q. And after the motel?
7 A. After — now, what are you talking? During?
8 Q. You said you were going to go to a motel.
9 You were in a motel.
10 A. Yeah, that’s it.
11 Q. Did he tell you you were going — how long
12 did he tell you you were going to have to stay at
13 that motel?
14 A. No, he didn’t. It was always one day. One
15 day. Every day everything changed.
16 Q. You had no other clothing with you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. All your clothing —
19 A. No clothing.
20 Q. — was at Neverland?
21 A. Was at Neverland.
22 Q. At some —
23 A. Every piece of clothing was at — in
24 Neverland that I had with me.
25 Q. At some point in time did you go shopping?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Where did you go shopping?
28 A. And this is — again, I had told them this 6254
1 is to replace — because I wouldn’t accept anything
2 from them. It was only in replacement. They said
3 it was not — not safe to return, so they were going
4 to replace the children’s items, and that’s how they
5 tricked us.
6 Q. All right. Ultimately how long did you stay
7 at that hotel at Calabasas?
8 A. From February 25th to March 2nd.
9 Q. And during that time, on how many of those
10 days did you go shopping for clothing?
11 A. One day.
12 Q. Was there any discussion during that
13 five-day period of time as to when you were going to
14 be going to Brazil?
15 A. Yes. It was — we were going to Brazil.
16 That’s it.
17 Q. Did they give you a day? Did they say in a
18 week? In a month? Did they say when?
19 A. No. No, the second they get them, the
20 second we’re going to go.
21 Q. The second they get what?
22 A. The second they get all of this covered.
23 Q. The documentation that they needed?
24 A. Yes, uh-huh.
25 Q. Did you believe at that time that you were
26 actually going to go to Brazil?
27 A. Yes. And this is the period when I called
28 Wheezy, Louise Palanker. 6255
1 Q. You called her from the hotel in Calabasas?
2 A. No, I didn’t. I don’t know where I was.
3 I don’t know where I was, but I called her during
4 this period. That I can remember clear.
5 Q. All right. Who was at the hotel during this
6 five-day period, other than you and your three
8 A. Frank. Vinnie. Johnny. This — another
9 guy that I never saw that always would stand outside
10 my window. And then these other people that I never
11 came to find out who they were.
12 Q. How many other people are we talking about?
13 A. Like I said, sometimes in the car there was
14 one, sometimes there was two, and sometimes there
15 was three.
16 Q. Were they there all the time?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Or one of them all the time?
19 A. Yes. Oh, there was — nobody left my side
20 at all.
21 Q. Were Frank and Vinnie with you the entire
23 A. No. It was these people that were all the
25 Q. Somebody named “Johnny” you just mentioned.
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. All right. What does he look like?
28 A. He’s — he’s big. 6256
1 Q. I’m sorry, I asked you about Johnny.
2 A. He’s big.
3 Q. Big?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What color hair does he have?
6 A. It’s a light color.
7 Q. Was he there the entire time?
8 A. Yes, the entire time.
9 Q. And day and night?
10 A. Day and night.
11 Q. Was there some — if you walked out of your
12 door, did you always see somebody there?
13 A. Yes. Absolutely. Outside my door, and
14 outside my window, and wherever we went.
15 MR. ZONEN: If I could approach the witness,
16 Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Showing you No. 26, please,
19 would you tell us who this is?
20 A. This is Johnny.
21 Q. That’s Johnny?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. During this period of time did you have
24 telephone calls with anybody else?
25 A. Me?
26 Q. Yes.
27 A. But my phone calls were being monitored and
28 listened to. 6257
1 Q. Somebody told you that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who?
4 A. Frank and Vinnie.
5 Q. Did you believe that to be true?
6 A. Yes, I did believe them.
7 Q. Notwithstanding that belief, did you make
8 phone calls from the hotel?
9 A. Yes, I did. What I did, I tried to give —
10 drop clues to every person. I figured — I figured
11 by all — this was all going to be resolved by God’s
12 miracles, and I figured one day — there will be one
13 day that all these people could give clues as to
14 when me and my children would have disappeared,
15 clues, clues, and this way this puzzle would have
16 been put together.
Janet starts to complain about her calls being “monitored” during the stay at the Calabasas hotel, and this is the reason why she never called the police:
17 Q. Who did you call during that period of time
18 when you were at the hotel?
19 A. I called my mom, but I tried to like whisper
20 to her in Spanish, and she said, “Que?” And so —
21 and —
22 Q. Your mom’s a little hard-of-hearing, isn’t
24 A. Yes, so — so that didn’t help me.
25 Q. All right. Did you tell your mother you
26 were going to Brazil?
27 A. No, I don’t think so.
28 Q. She didn’t know? 6258
1 A. No.
2 Q. Who else did you call?
3 A. But Aja did.
4 Q. You called Aja during this period of time?
5 A. Yes, yes. I sneaked it in there.
6 Q. You called her from where?
7 A. From the hotel.
8 Q. Okay. And you say you sneaked it in. What
9 does that mean?
10 A. Yes, yes. Like, you know, I was letting
11 her — I was talking and kind of dropping people
12 clues. Oh, you know, just kind of making —
13 Q. Hold on a second. The question was, how did
14 you sneak a call in? What does that mean?
15 A. Okay. No, no, all my conversations were
16 being monitored and listened to, all of them. What
17 I’m trying to say is, I sneaked it in a way where
18 I — I said it to her, hoping that nobody had
19 listened in on what I had told her.
20 Q. Who else did you call besides Aja, your mom
21 and Louise?
22 A. Aja, my mom, Louise — but I didn’t call
23 Louise from the hotel. I don’t remember where I
24 called her from.
25 Q. Okay.
26 A. Um — um, I think it was one of my cousins.
27 My mom.
28 Q. Did you call Jay during that period of time? 6259
1 A. Yes, I called Jay. I hadn’t called him for
3 Q. And you did call him from that hotel?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Did you call the police during
6 that time?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Why not?
9 A. Because my calls are being monitored, they
10 were being listened to, my parents are in danger,
11 Jay’s in danger, and who could possibly believe
13 Q. What do you mean by, “Who could possibly
14 believe it?” What was your concern in that regard?
15 A. That nobody would believe me. And that’s
16 because Frank said nobody would believe me.
17 Q. Did you, in your conversation with Jay from
18 the hotel, tell him what was going on?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you tell him you were going to Brazil?
21 A. I told him the same way I tried to talk to
22 Aja. Everything was always broken. It was never
23 complete. So in my — in the midst of a regular
24 conversation, I’d throw something in, hoping that it
25 hadn’t been heard, and yet that this — that part
26 could stick in somebody’s mind, and hopefully one of
27 these days this puzzle could be put together. I
28 tried. 6260
Janet then testified that she went back to Neverland on March 2nd, 2003, and stayed until March 10th, 2003, but that is a contradiction to Sneddon’s opening statement, during which he claimed that the Arvizos stayed at Neverland until March 12th, 2003! Janet also claimed that Jackson was there the entire time until they left, and that Gavin and Star were with him at all times. (This will be refuted later on in the trial.)
1 Q. After five days there, where did you go?
2 A. Back to Neverland.
3 Q. So this is now on the 2nd of March; is that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And how long did you stay at Neverland from
7 the 2nd of March?
8 A. Till March 10th.
9 Q. During that eight-day period of time, where
10 did you stay?
11 A. Like I told you, Mr. Zonen, from the 21st
12 on, when I was at Neverland, I just stood in the
13 room. That’s it. And that was per their order.
14 Q. Was there somebody around?
15 A. Yes. Either Frank or Vinnie, or both. But
16 this guy Joe, he was really scary. You know what’s
17 more scary? When you’re not spoken to and you’re
18 just watched. That was really scary.
19 Q. Do you know Joe’s name?
20 A. I don’t know his last name, but he’s — he
21 is extremely loyal to him, to Mr. Jackson.
22 Q. What does he look like, “Joe”?
23 A. He is tall, kind of balding, a little bit of
24 hair you can see.
25 Q. Do you mean a shaved head?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Do you know his last name?
28 A. I don’t know his last name. 6261
1 Q. Did you ever hear it before?
2 A. No. Always — the last names I would always
3 find out by accident. They never told me their last
4 names. Only when I would overhear them.
5 Q. What was it about Joe’s behavior that
6 frightened you?
7 A. That — that this particular specific time,
8 for example, they would stand right outside my
9 window, and Frank and Vinnie would talk to him, and
10 then they’d turn around, Joe would go like this
11 (indicating), and he’d go back and like this
12 (indicating) and just stand there.
13 Q. Was Chris Carter there during that time?
14 A. Chris Carter. Um, I don’t know. I don’t
15 know. I stood there inside the room.
16 Q. Was Jesus there during that time?
17 A. Yes. And whenever Jesus would — whatever,
18 come into my room, I’d go — you know, right there
19 in my room I’d try talk to him, and he would tell
20 me, “I can’t help you.”
21 Q. Where were your boys during this time, from
22 the 2nd to the 10th?
23 A. From the 2nd to the 10th, they were — they
24 were with Michael. This time I did see him.
25 Q. Could you tell if he was there the entire
26 time, from the 2nd —
27 A. Oh, yes.
28 Q. Who are we talking about now? 6262
1 A. Yes, because I’d see him. They’re running
2 around with my kids like crazy, crazy nuts, you
3 know. You know, I —
4 Q. All right, wait. You said “him.” Who is
6 A. Mr. Jackson.
7 Q. All right. And “they” were running with
8 him. Who are “they”?
9 A. My boys.
10 Q. “Like nuts,” explain that to me. What does
11 that mean?
12 A. Yeah, you know, I could see through my
13 window at a distance. I know they’re my kids, but
14 they’re this little. When you see someone really
15 far, they’re about this little, and I see him this
16 much bigger. It’s clearly them, them riding around
17 in a go-cart and — goodness gracious.
18 Q. Was there something about your boys’
19 behavior at that time that was alarming you?
20 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
21 THE WITNESS: No guidelines.
22 THE COURT: Just a minute.
24 You may answer.
25 THE WITNESS: No guidelines.
26 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What does that mean, “no
28 A. There’s no guidelines. There’s — that’s 6263
1 it. I’ve lost my kids.
2 Q. Did you have any contact with them during
3 this period of time?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And “no guidelines.” How were they actually
6 behaving? Tell us how they were behaving at that
8 A. Doing everything they wanted with Mr.
10 Q. All day long?
11 A. All day long, all night long.
12 Q. Where were they staying at night?
13 A. With Mr. Jackson.
14 Q. All right. Did you ever go into Mr.
15 Jackson’s residence at night?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were you able to go into his residence?
18 A. No. From — like I told you, Mr. Zonen,
19 from the period of the 21st on, no. I’d be generous
20 if I say, as my best estimate, two times.
21 Q. Did you tell the social workers from the
22 Department of Child & Family Services, did you tell
23 them that you would check on your children inside
24 the house throughout the night?
25 A. With the DCFS meeting, if you take a smaller
26 version of the video that we did on that same day,
27 if you make it smaller, that’s what — that’s what
28 was discussed. 6264
1 Q. Right. But did you, in fact, tell them
3 A. I could have. I could have.
4 Q. Did you know where your children —
5 A. And then but don’t forget about the other
6 additional tape-recording thing that Asaf had left
8 Q. Okay. Did you know where the boys were
9 sleeping inside the house?
10 A. No. At that time. Now I know.
11 Q. At the time, where do you believe that they
12 were sleeping?
13 A. I believed that the children stayed with
14 children. That’s what I believed.
15 Q. Do you mean his own children?
16 A. Well, with other children, because — just
17 children. That’s what I believed.
18 Q. Did you ever ask Gavin or Star where exactly
19 in the house they were sleeping during that time?
20 A. At that time, no.
21 Q. Did you ever have any conversations with
22 Michael Jackson during that period of time from the
23 2nd of March until the 10th of March?
24 A. No. Zero. They were having too much fun.
25 Q. Did you have any conversations with either
26 Vinnie or Frank during that period of time?
27 A. Oh, God. A lot of them.
28 Q. And – 6265
1 A. I didn’t have conversations. They — they
2 were coming at me.
3 Q. And what types of things were they telling
4 you at that time?
5 A. And just following their orders. Oh, this
6 is one of the things when they were trying to make
7 me sign that — that waiver.
8 Q. That waiver.
9 A. And I said, “No, no, I’m sorry, but my
10 signing days are over.”
Here is an excerpt from Sneddon’s opening statement on February 28th, 2005 in which he clearly states that they Arvizos left Neverland on March 12th, 2003:
9 But the truth and the fact is, that when
10 they got back to the ranch on the 7th of February,
11 that continuously when the defendant was there,
12 almost every night that they were there with the
13 defendant, the boys drank alcohol. And the fact of
14 the matter is, they will tell you that on virtually
15 every night in which the defendant is there, from
16 February 17th till March 12th when they left, that
17 they shared a bed with the defendant, Michael
Janet then claimed that Ronald and Dieter would arrange for her kids to be enrolled in school during their stay at Neverland, but it never happened, and she never complained because Frank Cascio would yell at her every time she tried to say something, and thus her speaking days were “over”. Seriously.
11 Q. Were your children in school during this
12 period of time that they were at Neverland?
13 A. No, no school.
14 Q. Were they getting any private instruction
15 while they were at Neverland?
16 A. No. See —
17 Q. No, did you complain about that to anybody?
18 A. I brought it to Mr. Jackson’s attention —
19 THE REPORTER: And to whose attention?
20 THE WITNESS: To Mr. Jackson, on that
21 first — prior to that meeting with Jesus.
22 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: During the initial stay?
23 A. Yes, the initial —
24 Q. Early in February?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. What did Mr. Jackson say to you about your
27 children getting tutoring or schooling?
28 A. That Ronald and Dieter would fix everything. 6266
1 Q. Now, during this subsequent stay from the
2 2nd to the 10th of March of 2003, did you complain
3 about them not getting any schooling during that
5 A. No. My complaining — my speaking days were
6 over, because the second I would say something,
8 Q. The second you would say something, somebody
9 would do something?
10 A. Yes. Frank would holler at me.
11 Q. Were you aware that there was a private
12 school located near Neverland?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you ever ask them to send the children
15 to a private school?
16 A. No.
During her time at Neverland, Janet took the kids to the dentist because she claimed that the social workers told her that if their braces weren’t removed, they would call the police on her.
17 Q. At some point in time did your children
18 visit a dentist while they were at Neverland?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. For what purpose?
21 A. Remember how I told you I kept trying to
22 do — do things, Mr. Zonen, about ways — ways of
23 getting out of there? And so I had told them that
24 if I didn’t get — if I didn’t get the
25 orthodontist’s teeth — braces removed, that they
26 will — the social workers were going to call the
28 And originally, Ronald and Dieter, way when 6267
1 the Germans were involved, they had said that it was
2 bad PR for the police to get involved for Mr.
4 So I used that, and I told them that they
5 were going — if I didn’t get the braces removed,
6 that they were going to call the social workers.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. So I used that, because what I was trying to
9 do was go to my orthodontist, so this way it was
10 someone I knew that could possibly believe me.
11 Q. All right. Now, whose idea was it to go to
12 a different orthodontist?
13 A. Their idea.
14 Q. And did you, in fact, go to a different
16 A. Yes. And get this: After the orthodontist
17 was closed, no other patient was there. It was
18 after hours, and with that scary guy Joe, and being
19 put on notice that I was being listened and
20 monitored. So again, I, the mother, failed again.
21 Q. All right. Now, did they take off the
22 braces at that time?
23 A. Yes, they took off the braces.
24 Q. Were they, in fact, ready to have their
25 braces removed?
26 A. They were not ready to take off the braces.
27 My children were supposed to have — I think one of
28 them was, I think two years of orthodontistry. And 6268
1 the other one had — Star needed — required
2 orthodontic care, and I think it was about three
4 And so we — the kids only had — at that
5 period, I think they only had them on for — oh, I
6 think they only had had them on at a period of six
7 months at that time. And that’s my best estimates.
8 So they weren’t supposed to be taken off.
9 Q. Why didn’t you simply change your mind about
10 it and say, “No, we won’t take them off”?
11 A. Then they would have known then that I’m
12 trying to escape. Because every time I tried to
13 leave, there was huge consequences.
Next, Janet was asked about moving out of her Soto Street apartment, and she uttered some mumbo-jumbo that was almost indecipherable, so Mesereau objected and it was sustained by Judge Melville.
She also mentioned “love letters” from Jackson that she had in her possession at her apartment, and she was nice enough to describe to everyone the specific clay pot that they were hidden under!
14 Q. Did you have a talk with anybody at
15 Neverland about moving out of your apartment on Soto
17 A. This was — it was an evolvement of
18 different things. First evolvement was when —
19 because the killers had gone to my apartment, I had
20 to move out and different things. But this only
21 came after — after they found out that I had in my
22 home Michael’s letter, a rabbit that he had given my
23 son, which he wanted him to call him “Michael,” just
24 different pictures. So my apartment was meaningless
25 to them until they found out that Michael’s things
26 were there.
27 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
28 move to strike. 6269
1 THE WITNESS: That’s my whole answer.
2 THE COURT: Just a moment. Just a moment.
3 It’s sustained.
4 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Let’s back up a couple
5 notches if we can.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. The first conversation that you had about
8 moving out of the apartment on Soto Street was with
9 whom? Just tell me the name.
10 A. With Ronald and Dieter.
11 Q. That was with Ronald and Dieter?
12 A. Yes. Way back.
13 Q. So that was way back?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did they talk to you at that time about
16 moving out of the apartment?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. At some point in time, did you tell — did
19 you tell somebody that in your possessions at that
20 apartment —
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. — were letters from Michael Jackson?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; leading.
25 THE COURT: Overruled.
26 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: That answer was “Yes”?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. With whom did you have that conversation? 6270
1 A. With Ronald and Dieter.
2 Q. Now, in fact, where were those letters?
3 A. In my apartment.
4 Q. And where in your apartment were they?
5 A. Okay. They were in different places. But
6 one specific place that I remember is, I had a clay
7 pot and it was Gerbera daisies, artificial Gerbera
8 daisies. They weren’t real. So when you lift it
9 up, it’s empty, because the artificial flowers do
10 not belong to that pot. You can — you can easily
11 lift it up and out.
12 And I had placed them there. The — and the
13 reason that I had placed them there is because David
14 is very sneaky. He does things, so I didn’t want
15 David to get his hands on them.
16 Q. The letters were from Michael Jackson to
18 A. To Gavin. Purely to Gavin.
19 Q. Had you read those letters?
20 A. Who?
21 Q. You.
22 A. Me? Yes. Yes.
23 Q. Why did you keep them at all, those letters?
24 A. Because they — Michael had sent them, and
25 they said “I love you” to Gavin, and, “Love you,
26 Apple Head,” and “Doo-Doo Head.” Just — I just
27 kept them, you know, along with all these other
28 things that I had ever received from other people. 6271
1 Q. You had other letters there as well?
2 A. Yeah. From other people, too.
3 Q. Now, did you tell either Dieter or Ronald
4 where those letters were?
5 A. No, I didn’t. I just said they were in my
7 Q. Did you tell them that anything else was in
8 your apartment that had come from Neverland or from
9 Michael Jackson?
10 A. Yeah. Pictures. And then the rabbit. It
11 was a little pretend rabbit, not a real rabbit.
12 Q. All right. A rabbit from Neverland?
13 A. Yeah, it was just a rabbit that came in a
14 gift basket.
15 Q. Where was that kept?
16 A. That was out in the open.
17 Q. Now, you said Ronald and Dieter talked to
18 you about moving out of the apartment?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. At some point did either Frank or Vinnie
21 talk with you about moving out of the apartment?
22 A. Oh, yes.
23 Q. Who was the first, between the two of them,
24 to the best of your recollection?
25 A. Frank, on the phone, telling me it was so
27 Q. At some point in time did you move out of
28 the apartment? 6272
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Who did you tell that you were willing to
3 move out?
4 A. I didn’t tell them that — that yes, for
5 sure. That I would think about it.
6 Q. Who is it that you told that to?
7 A. To Frank. But it wasn’t a “Yes.” I would
8 think about it.
9 Q. Were you ultimately moved out of that
11 A. Yes. And this time I had said, “No.” I
12 thought about it, and then it was a “No.”
13 Q. Do you recall if you signed anything that
14 reflected your willingness to move out of that
16 A. I didn’t sign a thing.
17 Q. Did you have a conversation with anybody
18 about moving out?
19 A. Yeah. Frank and Vinnie. And then Ronald,
20 Dieter in the beginning.
When Janet moved out of the Soto Street apartment on March 1st, 2003, her possessions were put into storage, and her back rent was paid by Jackson’s associates:
21 Q. All right. Now, was there any rent that was
22 owed on that apartment at that time?
23 A. That’s another thing that they had found
24 out. It had slipped out —
25 Q. Hold on just one second.
26 A. Okay.
27 Q. The question was, was there any money that
28 was owed on that apartment? 6273
1 A. At that current time, it was — no.
2 Q. How long had you lived in that apartment?
3 A. Five years.
4 Q. Was there any point in time during that
5 five-year period where you did not pay rent?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And when was that?
8 A. That was when Gavin was ill.
9 Q. And for how many months was that?
10 A. That was two months.
11 Q. And what did the landlord say about that?
12 A. One — one month he gave — he gave us. And
13 the second one was owed to him, and he had told us
14 to pay it when we can and it’s okay.
15 Q. All right. One month was simply gratis; it
16 was given to you —
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. — for free?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the second month you owed?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How much money was — what was the rent for
23 that apartment?
24 A. My apartment rent was 425. But I was
25 current to the point that — since 2000. That was
26 since 2000.
27 Q. All right. So at the time that you were at
28 Neverland for this period between the 2nd and the 6274
1 10th —
2 A. Was already 2003. And I was still current
3 on my month (sic), every month.
4 Q. How about that one month that you were going
5 to pay back at a later time? Was that ever paid
7 A. No. Never.
8 Q. So there was still a —
9 A. Yeah, it’s something that I knew.
10 Q. There was still 400-plus dollars that —
11 A. No, it was actually — it was two months
12 that weren’t paid. But he said one was okay, and
13 one was — but it was two.
14 Q. Well, tell me, what was the amount that was
15 owed at —
16 A. 850 from the year 2000. Nothing current.
17 My rent was paid current.
18 Q. All right. 850 would reflect two months; is
19 that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that was —
22 A. Of the year 2000.
23 Q. Didn’t you say that one of those months was
25 A. Yeah, that’s what he said. But I didn’t —
26 I still didn’t — you know.
27 Q. It was either 425, one month, or 850 for two
28 months? 6275
1 A. It was for two months, but he had
2 voluntarily said that one month is okay.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. But —
5 Q. Did you believe you owed 850?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Do you know if somebody paid off the balance
10 of the rent that was owed?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know who that was?
13 A. I came to find out — it had slipped out of
14 Vinnie that they didn’t want no one to be able to —
15 to miss me or the kids, or start raising questions
16 as to where the kids were. And usually because
17 of — this is what Vinnie said; that they would
18 possibly start looking for me because I hadn’t paid
19 my rent.
20 Q. Do you know if somebody paid off that
22 A. Yes, I became aware of that.
23 Q. Do you know who it was that paid it off?
24 A. No, I don’t. That part I don’t know.
25 Q. It wasn’t you?
26 A. No.
27 THE COURT: Counsel? Take a break.
28 (Recess taken.) 6276
1 MR. ZONEN: May I approach the witness,
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 MR. ZONEN: Yes, please.
5 Madam Clerk, is 276 in evidence? I don’t
6 believe it is. 276.
7 THE CLERK: It hasn’t been identified yet.
8 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. I’m showing you
9 now Exhibit No. 276, which is two separate sheets,
10 the second one having two documents in it, front and
12 And do we have that pen that you had
14 And again, on the vinyl of 276, not on the
15 document itself, perhaps right here, tell us what —
16 let’s mark “A” for 276-A. And is that an envelope?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. To whom?
19 A. To me.
20 Q. From whom?
21 A. From my old landlord.
22 Q. Okay. At the Soto Street address?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And the address to where that was sent?
25 A. The address where it was sent was my
26 mother’s home address.
27 Q. In El Monte?
28 A. In El Monte. 6277
1 Q. Let’s go to the second document, No. B. And
2 mark that “B,” if you would, please, on the vinyl
4 BAILIFF CORTEZ: You have to speak into the
6 THE WITNESS: Oh.
7 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: And does that appear to be a
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is your name typed on the end of that
12 A. Yes, it is typed.
13 Q. And is that your signature above it?
14 A. No, it’s not my signature.
15 Q. Would you read the content of that letter,
16 please. To yourself.
17 A. Oh. Okay. Okay.
18 Q. All right. What does that letter purport to
20 A. What does —
21 Q. What does the letter say?
22 A. Oh. It says basically — should I read it
23 or just tell — summarize?
24 Q. Go ahead and read it.
25 A. It says, “I, Janet Arvizo, who have lived in
26 Apartment 208, have spoken to Yolanda about ending
27 my lease. As of March 1st, 2003, my apartment is
28 cleaned and I have officially moved out as per the 6278
1 conversation. This letter is official notification
2 of the monthly lease on Apartment 208’s
4 Q. And what is the date of the letter itself?
5 A. March 4th, 2003.
6 Q. Did you, in fact, sign that letter?
7 A. No, I didn’t.
8 Q. Turn the letter over, this document, No. B,
9 over. Is there another letter on that?
10 A. Yes, there is.
11 Q. Is your name on that?
12 A. The printed name is on it.
13 Q. Is there a signature above your printed
15 A. Yes, there’s a signature.
16 Q. Is that, in fact, your signature?
17 A. It is not my signature.
18 Q. Read that letter to yourself.
19 A. Okay. Okay.
20 Q. And what does that document say?
21 A. It says, “As per my conversation with
22 Yolanda, the official final liabilities owed to the
23 management is an amount of $850. This is an
24 official receipt of this liability owed to the
25 building manager and fully absolves me of any
26 further payment. Upon signing this form, the
27 management of the apartment building on 807 North
28 Soto Street, Los Angeles, California, for my 6279
1 apartment, Apartment 208, recognizes payment in
2 full, and no other moneys to be received by the
3 management of this building from me, Janet Arvizo.
4 And I am fully free of any debts owed to the
6 Q. All right. Were these letters sent to you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were they sent — who sent these letters to
10 A. The landlord did.
11 Q. Was that after you had already moved out?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who is it you were talking to about moving
14 out of your apartment? In other words, who at
15 Neverland was it that you were talking to about
16 moving out?
17 A. Frank and Vinnie.
18 Q. At some point in time did you give them the
19 key to that apartment?
20 A. I think they had taken the key from me.
21 Q. I’m —
22 A. I think, maybe. I don’t know.
23 Q. Do you have a recollection of how they got
24 the key?
25 A. No, I don’t remember.
26 Q. What were your feelings about moving out of
27 your apartment at that time?
28 A. Remember how I said I would think about it? 6280
1 Well, at this time now it’s a no.
2 Q. All right. Did you tell them no, you didn’t
3 want to move out of your apartment?
4 A. That’s correct.
5 Q. Do you know where your possessions went to
6 after they moved you out?
7 A. No, I do not.
8 Q. Did they ever tell you where your
9 possessions were moved to?
10 A. No, they didn’t. That’s another reason why
11 I needed Mr. Dickerman’s help after I left
13 Q. Did anybody tell you that they were put into
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you ever return to that apartment on
17 Soto Street after you left Neverland at the time?
18 A. No.
Moving on, Zonen questioned Janet about the trip to the hospital on March 10th, 2003, where Gavin had to have his kidney examined and a urine sample submitted. Janet testified that Frank Cascio took away her urine container during their stay at the Calabasas Hotel because he knew that Gavin had been drinking alcohol with Jackson.
1 Q. I’d like to move you ahead to the 10th of
2 March, if I may.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. You told us that you had a preexisting
5 schedule requiring a visit again back at Kaiser
6 Hospital; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what exactly was it that Gavin had to do
9 in preparation for that visit?
10 A. He had to — okay, well, actually the
11 creatinine clearance, Mr. Zonen, had to be turned in
12 immediately. The creatinine clearance, that had to
13 be turned in immediately after the doctor’s visit,
14 which was way back in February, February 25th.
15 MR. MESEREAU: Objection, Your Honor.
16 Nonresponsive; move to strike.
17 THE COURT: Sustained. Stricken.
18 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: I want to be very specific
19 about the questions that I ask —
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. — and the answers that you give.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. The purpose of the visit on the 10th of
24 March was for what?
25 A. Just to check his kidney.
26 Q. And was there a requirement that he had to
27 furnish a urine sample?
28 A. That was required since February 25th. 6295
1 Q. Okay. And why —
2 A. I had to do that the next day.
3 Q. Why didn’t you do it on February 25th?
4 A. Because they didn’t let me. They didn’t
5 want me to go back to Kaiser to turn it in.
6 Q. Did he have an examination that had to take
7 place on the 10th as well?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the examination was to do what?
10 A. Was to check his kidney.
11 Q. All right. Did they, in fact, do that at
12 that time?
13 MR. MESEREAU: Object to the word “they.”
14 Move to strike.
15 THE COURT: Sustained. Stricken.
16 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did he have an examination of
17 some kind at Kaiser Hospital on the 10th?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what was the examination that he had?
20 A. To check the inside of his kidney.
21 Q. Were you present during that exam?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did that exam take place?
24 A. And so was Vinnie.
25 Q. And that exam took place?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Now, the creatinine clearance, tell us what
28 that is, please. 6296
1 A. The creatinine clearance is a 24-hour urine
2 collection to check on Gavin’s kidney.
3 Q. And was there some piece of equipment that
4 he had to have to collect it in?
5 A. Yes. It’s a big, giant jug that — it’s
6 made to collect urine.
7 Q. Now, I’m told that this is not a used
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. And this is No. 349. Can you tell us if
11 this Exhibit No. 349 is similar or dissimilar —
12 A. It’s similar, but it’s not it.
13 Q. It’s not the same?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Tell us how that is different from the one
16 that you had.
17 A. Okay. It doesn’t have this, this thing, at
18 all. It’s just completely closed.
19 Q. All right. Is the configur — and the thing
20 that you’re saying, “this thing” —
21 A. The cap. The cap.
22 Q. The cap is different on it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. Now, the cap on the one that you
25 had, did it close in the same fashion?
26 A. It closed. It’s completely closed, sealed.
27 Q. So there wasn’t a part that you could open
28 up? 6297
1 A. There is no part that you can open up like
3 Q. On the one that you had, did it twist
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In the same fashion?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. Was it —
9 A. It’s similar, the bottle, though.
10 Q. The bottle and the size was similar?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The cap on the one that you had, did it
13 close to the same extent?
14 A. Completely sealed, because —
15 Q. You need to wait until the question is asked
16 in its entirety.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. The top, did it seal closed to the same
19 extent that this one does?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So it twisted closed?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. The one that you had, was it as
24 secure as the one that this is?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Okay. All right. Now, was the color the
28 A. Yes, just about. 6298
1 Q. All right. Where did you get that
2 particular container, the one that —
3 A. At Kaiser at the laboratory.
4 Q. All right. Was that on the 25th?
5 A. That was on the 25th. And I was supposed to
6 do that —
7 Q. Did you have a specific time schedule for
8 returning it?
9 A. Immediately.
10 Q. All right. And it wasn’t done until the
12 A. It wasn’t done.
13 Q. All right. Whose idea was it to do it
14 around the time of the 10th?
15 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; foundation.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 You may answer.
18 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Go ahead and answer.
19 A. Every time — I had done these creatinine
20 clearance already for years, since the year 2000.
21 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; nonresponsive.
22 THE COURT: Sustained.
23 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Again, you need to listen to
24 the question.
25 A. Okay.
26 Q. Whose idea was it to do it the 10th, you or
27 somebody else?
28 A. I had kept having Gavin do the urine 6299
1 clearance, and every time there was an excuse why it
2 couldn’t get turned in. It was lost; it was — the
3 urine wasn’t continued —
4 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
5 move to strike.
6 THE WITNESS: That’s my answer.
7 MR. ZONEN: No, you need to listen to the
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Who decided to do it on the
12 A. I did.
13 Q. All right. That was the question.
14 A. But there was many times before —
15 Q. Hold on.
16 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike as
18 MR. ZONEN: Hold on. We’ll take care of it.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: You need to listen to the
21 question being asked.
22 Did you then give this container to Gavin to
23 do this urine collection?
24 A. It had been given to him since the 25th.
25 Q. So he had it in his possession?
26 A. Yes. Yes.
27 Q. All right. Did you have a conversation with
28 Gavin about him collecting his urine? 6300
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. At about that time?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was it at least 24 hours prior to your going
5 back to Los Angeles?
6 A. Yes, it had to be.
7 Q. Did you talk with him about collecting the
8 urine during that time?
9 A. Yes. From the doctors.
10 Q. Yes. And, now, this is something he had
11 done previously; is that right?
12 A. Yes. For years already.
13 Q. Now, to your understanding, did he begin
14 collecting his urine?
15 A. He started collecting it from — from
16 like — I think it was from the 2nd on, when we
17 returned to Neverland. Because from the 25th to the
18 2nd when we were in the hotel, Frank had taken them
19 away from us, because we weren’t going to go to the
20 doctors anymore.
21 Q. I didn’t understand that. Frank actually
22 took one of these containers away?
23 A. Yes, he took it away from Gavin.
24 Q. At the hotel?
25 A. At the motel.
26 Q. You had one of these at the hotel?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Did you have a conversation with Gavin at 6301
1 Neverland about turning in this urine?
2 A. No, I didn’t. I had told Vinnie and Vinnie
3 had told Gavin. It was like I said; no more contact
4 with my children from when we returned to –
According to Janet, at 4am in the morning of March 10th, 2003, Gavin called her from Jackson’s bedroom and said that he had been forced to drink “Jesus Juice”, and Jackson was scared that it would be detected during the urine test. Janet and Gavin were driven to the hospital by Vinnie Amen, and Gavin was passed out in the back seat of the vehicle. Before arriving at the hospital, they stopped at a Denny’s restaurant so that Janet could use the restroom, and she went in by herself. When she was finished and went back outside, Vinnie and Gavin had driven away, but returned a few minutes later. Janet claimed that some of the urine had been dumped out, and when she asked Vinnie what happened, he said that the bottle “must have fallen”.
5 Q. At some time prior to your going back to Los
6 Angeles, did Gavin call you?
7 A. Yes. On March 10th.
8 Q. All right. Did he say something to you
9 concerning the urine?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What —
12 A. It was about 4 a.m.
13 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive and
15 THE COURT: I’ll strike after, “Yes.”
16 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What did he tell you about
17 his urine sample?
18 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Hearsay.
19 MR. ZONEN: It would be a spontaneous
20 declaration and an excitable utterance.
21 MR. MESEREAU: No foundation.
22 MR. ZONEN: It also explains the conduct of
23 the parties thereafter.
24 THE COURT: I’ll overrule the objection.
25 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. What did he say
26 to you about the urine sample?
27 A. He called me about 4 a.m., and — he had
28 phoned into the guesthouse, into the room I was. 6302
1 And he had told me, “Mommy, we need to reschedule,”
2 because this was the end —
3 Q. Just tell us what he said.
4 A. Okay. Every time I wanted to do a
5 creatinine clearance, they would always say no.
6 Finally, I was using this appointment —
7 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
8 move to strike.
9 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: You need to tell us — the
10 question specifically is, what did Gavin tell you?
11 A. Gavin had called me about 4 a.m., and he had
12 told me that Michael was scared because he had drank
13 some Jesus Juice; that it was going to be detected
14 in his urine.
15 And that’s when I told him, “Baby, what do
16 you mean.”
17 THE COURT: Wait, stop. He just asked what
18 Gavin said.
19 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.
20 THE COURT: Just stop.
21 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Did you know what “Jesus
22 Juice” was?
23 A. I had asked what “Jesus Juice” was.
24 Q. Did he tell you what “Jesus Juice” was?
25 A. Wine.
26 Q. Was this the first time you knew that he had
27 been —
28 A. This is the first time. 6303
1 Q. You need to listen to the question.
2 Was this the first time you had learned that
3 Gavin was drinking alcohol?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When did you leave to go to the hospital?
6 A. From 4 a.m., I didn’t sleep anymore. It
7 was — I tried to get them up about 6:00. Nobody
8 could find Gavin, so we left there in the morning.
9 Q. What do you mean, “Nobody could find Gavin”?
10 A. They couldn’t find Gavin.
11 Q. Did —
12 A. The security people. And they said that,
13 “They’re with Michael,” and that was it; that they
14 needed Jesus’s help to locate Michael with the boys.
15 Q. All right. Now, how did you find Gavin that
16 morning? How were you able to find Gavin?
17 A. Well, finally Jesus brought him over.
18 Q. At what time was that?
19 A. That was — I don’t know. I don’t know. We
20 were supposed to leave Neverland at 7:00, and I know
21 we didn’t because —
22 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
23 move to strike.
24 THE WITNESS: I can’t — so it had to be
25 after 7:00, because we didn’t leave at —
26 THE COURT: Just a moment.
27 THE WITNESS: Okay. Yes, sir.
28 THE COURT: I’ll strike that. Ask the 6304
1 question again.
2 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Do you know what time it was
3 you left Neverland?
4 A. No. It was after 7:00, my best estimate.
5 Q. Were you up from four o’clock in the
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was Gavin with you when you left?
9 A. Yes. And so was Vinnie.
10 Q. Did you have the container of urine with
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who was holding on to the container?
14 A. Gavin handed it to me.
15 Q. So you were holding on to it during the
17 A. Yes. Oh, yes, I was.
18 Q. Where were you sitting in the car?
19 A. I was sitting in the front of the car, in
20 the front seat, and Gavin handed it to me.
21 Q. All right. Did you hold on to it for the
22 length of the drive?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Where was Gavin sitting?
25 A. Gavin was laid out, passed out in the back
27 Q. He was asleep?
28 A. In deep sleep. 6305
1 Q. And was it Vinnie who was driving?
2 A. Yes. It was Vinnie.
3 Q. Anybody else in the car?
4 A. No. Just me, Vinnie, and — me, Vinnie and
5 Gavin, and — and those people.
6 Q. At some point in time, did you stop on your
7 way to the hospital?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Why did you stop?
10 A. I — I had to go — I had to use the rest
11 room really bad, because I had been drinking the
12 whole entire time to keep me up, so I wouldn’t fall
13 back to sleep.
14 Q. Drinking what?
15 A. I kept drinking coffee.
16 Q. Okay. You had to use the rest room?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Where did you stop?
19 A. I stopped at Denny’s, and I tried to hold it
20 so much.
21 Q. Did you — do you know where it was that you
23 A. No.
24 Q. The location?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Do you know how long you were in the car at
27 the time that you stopped to use the rest room?
28 A. I don’t know. My best estimate, maybe 6306
2 Q. Did you then go into the restaurant?
3 A. Yes, I went into Denny’s.
4 Q. When you came back out, where was the car?
5 A. Gone.
6 Q. How long did you wait for the car to return?
7 A. Maybe about — maybe about not more than
8 five minutes. It was just minutes.
9 Q. Was Gavin still asleep in the back?
10 A. He was asleep.
11 Q. All right. And did you talk to Vinnie about
12 where he had been?
13 A. Yeah. I asked him, “Where did you go?” He
14 says, “Oh, I went driving around.” I’m thinking,
15 “We’ve just been driving for a long time. Why would
16 you need to drive any more?”
17 Q. Did you get back in the car and proceed to
18 the hospital?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you notice the urine sample at that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What did you notice about the urine sample?
24 A. I noticed that the bag had been moved a
25 little bit, okay?
26 Q. It was in a bag?
27 A. Yes, in a paper bag, okay?
28 So then I said, “Okay,” so then I picked it 6307
1 up. And when I picked it up — when it had urine,
2 it’s heavy. And it was light. And there was
3 only — do I continue?
4 Q. You —
5 A. There was only this much urine in it.
6 Q. All right. Did you ask Vinnie — was the
7 top sealed back on?
8 A. It was sealed back on and it was like a
9 little bit wet.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. And it wasn’t closed tight, though, because
12 when Gavin had handed it to me, it’s customarily
13 that I always check the cap.
14 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Move to strike;
16 THE COURT: Stricken.
17 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: When you noticed that the
18 container was missing, did you say anything to
20 A. The container wasn’t missing. It was —
21 Q. The content of the container was
22 substantially less than before; is that right?
23 A. Yes. I asked him — it was only this much
24 in there.
25 Q. How much had been in there up to that time?
26 A. Almost this way.
27 Q. And by “this way,” you mean about 90 —
28 A. About this full. 6308
1 Q. About 90 percent full?
2 A. About this full. And then there was this
3 much after I went to Denny’s.
4 Q. Maybe 10 percent full?
5 A. About this much.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. I don’t know percent.
8 Q. That’s okay.
9 All right. Did you ask him what happened?
10 A. Yes. I said, “What happened?”
11 Q. What did he say?
12 A. And he didn’t answer me. And then he just
13 commented, “Oh, it must have fallen.”
14 Q. I’m sorry?
15 A. He said — he commented — because he didn’t
16 answer me. And then he said, “It must have fallen.”
17 And that’s it. I knew at that point, zip the lip.
18 Q. All right. But were you able to tell —
19 MR. MESEREAU: Move to strike;
21 THE COURT: Stricken.
22 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Were you able to tell whether
23 urine had spilled into the car or not?
24 A. There was no urine odor, wasn’t wet, nothing
25 like that.
26 Q. You weren’t able to see any evidence that
27 urine spilled inside —
28 A. That’s right. 6309
1 Q. Listen to the question in its entirety.
2 You weren’t able to see any evidence of
3 urine having been spilled anywhere inside the car?
4 A. That’s correct.
5 Q. Did you ask Vinnie to explain how it
7 A. I asked him what happened. He didn’t
8 answer. But afterwards he had commented.
9 Q. What did he comment to you about?
10 A. “It must have fallen.”
11 Q. Did you continue on to Kaiser Hospital?
12 A. Yes, I did. And I stood quiet.
13 Q. And did Gavin, in fact, have the test that
14 he was supposed to have at that time?
15 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; foundation.
16 MR. ZONEN: I’ll withdraw the question.
17 Q. Did Gavin go into the hospital —
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. — with you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was Vinnie there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was the urine sample turned in?
24 A. Yeah. I turned it in and —
25 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. Nonresponsive;
26 move to strike.
27 MR. ZONEN: The question is, was it turned
28 in, and she said yes. 6310
1 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
2 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. Where did you
3 turn it in?
4 A. In to the laboratory.
5 Q. Did you talk with anybody there about the
6 content of the bottle?
7 A. They said —
8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection; hearsay.
9 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: The question is, did you —
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Yes or no?
12 Okay. And did you at that time turn it in?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Prior to your leaving the car to go to the
15 rest room, how tight was the top of that
16 container —
17 A. It was —
18 Q. Wait till the question is answered (sic).
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. How tight was the top of the container
21 screwed onto the container?
22 A. It was tight.
23 Q. Was that your habit and custom each time?
24 A. It was a habit and custom, because I always
25 had to travel with the urine on a bus, so —
26 Q. Do you know how long you were at the
27 hospital, Kaiser Hospital, with Vinnie and with
28 Gavin? 6311
1 A. Well, when I went to go try to turn that in
2 to the laboratory, and then we went to the
3 appointment, which was in a different building.