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April 19th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Janet Arvizo (Redirect & ReCross Examination), Victor Alvarez, Maria Ventura, William Caldwell, Rod Forney, Michael Davy, Janet Williams, Part 4 of 4

August 23, 2013

Next, Meseraeu questioned Davy about his conversation with Sgt. Steve Robel, during which he stated that he did not see any definitive change in Gavin’s behavior during February and March 2003:

27 Q. Do you remember being interviewed by a


28 Sergeant Steve Robel of the Santa Barbara Sheriff’s 6923


1 Office?


2 A. Yes.


3 Q. Do you remember telling Sheriff Robel that


4 you saw a consistent pattern of poor grades from


5 school to school with Gavin?


6 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to


7 object. It’s hearsay. It calls for reliance on


8 hearsay records.


9 THE COURT: Overruled.


10 THE WITNESS: You know, I honestly don’t


11 recall it.


12 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Might it refresh your


13 recollection to look at a police report about your


14 interview?


15 A. Okay.


16 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?


17 THE COURT: Yes.


18 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Davy, have you had a


19 chance to look at that report? Does it refresh your


20 recollection about what you told Sheriff Robel about


21 that issue?


22 A. Yes.


23 Q. And what did you tell him?


24 A. That he had consistently underperformed in


25 his academic pursuits.


26 Q. Do you recall that you were asked if you had


27 seen any change in Gavin’s demeanor, attitude or


28 academic performance from the period prior to 6924


1 February 2003 to the time Gavin returned to school


2 on March 17th, 2003?


3 A. Yes.


4 Q. Do you recall your saying you had seen no


5 definitive change in Gavin’s demeanor, attitude or


6 academic performance during that period?


7 A. Yes.

Next, Davy described the checkout process of Gavin and Star by Vincent Amen, who had received permission from Janet to check them out of school:

8 Q. Now, Gavin had a truancy counselor, correct?


9 A. Well, are you talking about Mr. Coffman?


10 Q. Yes.


11 A. Well, Mr. Coffman was an itinerant. He came


12 to school two or three days a week and dealt with —


13 he would get computer readouts of people who had


14 long-term absences.


15 Q. Okay. Is the appropriate label for him


16 truancy counselor?


17 A. No, it’s pupil service and attendance


18 counselor.


19 Q. Okay. And you said he would come three days


20 a week?


21 A. Yeah. Oftentimes schools have to buy that


22 time. So sometimes the school would buy two days


23 and another school would buy three days, so he would


24 split the assignment.


25 Q. Okay. And did you discuss issues involving


26 Gavin with Mr. Coffman?


27 A. I don’t know about issues. I asked him to


28 go to Gavin’s house. 6925


1 Q. Okay. And the purpose was to talk to the


2 family about why Gavin wasn’t going to school?


3 A. Right. At that point in time.


4 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated to the prosecutor


5 that at some point someone named Vinnie Amen came to


6 the school to check Gavin and Star out; is that


7 correct?


8 A. Correct.


9 Q. And Mr. Amen provided the school with a copy


10 of his identification, correct?


11 A. Correct.


12 Q. And he gave the school a copy of his New


13 Jersey driver’s license for the school files, right?


14 A. Right.


15 Q. And to your knowledge, did he sign anything


16 when he was checking these two students out; do you


17 know?


18 A. I don’t know.


19 Q. But your understanding was that Janet had


20 given him permission to check out Gavin and Star,


21 right?


22 A. Right.


23 MR. SNEDDON: I object, Your Honor. It


24 calls for a conclusion.


25 THE COURT: Sustained.


26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: In your response to the


27 prosecutor’s questions, correct me if I’m wrong, did


28 you say something to the effect that the school had 6926


1 permission from Janet to allow Mr. Amen to check out


2 these two students?


3 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to


4 object. Calls for hearsay.


5 MR. MESEREAU: His state of mind, Your


6 Honor. I believe he testified to it on direct.


7 THE COURT: The objection is sustained.


8 I believe you objected to the same testimony.




10 Q. At some point, was it your understanding


11 that Mr. Amen did, in fact, check out the two


12 students?


13 A. Yes.


14 Q. Okay. And what would the normal procedure


15 be for allowing someone not in the family to check


16 out a student?


17 A. A permission slip written by the parent.


18 Q. Okay. And did you follow the normal


19 procedure when Mr. Amen was checking out Gavin and


20 Star?


21 A. Yes.

Davy had several meetings with Janet Arvizo about Gavin’s misbehavior, and in this excerpt he described in detail Gavin’s mischief:

22 Q. Do you know how many meetings you had with


23 Ms. Arvizo about Gavin’s poor behavior?


24 A. Not an exact number, no.


25 Q. And when Gavin was checked out of the


26 school, how long had he been attending that school,


27 if you remember?


28 A. Well, just months, since November. So 6927


1 November to late February.


2 Q. And would it be accurate to say that even


3 though he was only there a few months, it became


4 readily apparent that he was a disciplinary problem,


5 right?


6 A. Yes.


7 Q. The disciplinary problems began — excuse


8 me. The disciplinary problems with Gavin began in


9 November of 2002, right?


10 A. I don’t recollect the first time.


11 Q. But certainly around that time, correct?


12 A. Probably.


13 Q. Now, what typically is the procedure you


14 follow at this school if somebody has a disciplinary


15 problem?


16 MR. SNEDDON: Object as immaterial, Your


17 Honor.


18 THE COURT: Sustained.


19 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall Gavin being


20 late to class?


21 A. Not specifically, but I’m guessing that he


22 was.


23 MR. SNEDDON: Object. Move to strike.


24 Speculation. That part beyond the —


25 THE COURT: It’s stricken.


26 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Would it refresh your


27 recollection to look at some school records in that


28 regard? 6928


1 A. Sure.


2 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?




4 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Davy, have you had a


5 chance to look at those records?


6 A. Yes.


7 Q. Do they refresh your recollection about


8 disciplinary problems you had at your school with


9 Gavin Arvizo?


10 A. Yes.


11 MR. SNEDDON: Excuse me, Your Honor. I’m


12 going to object to the question. That wasn’t the


13 question that he was refreshing. I won’t talk any


14 more, but I don’t believe that’s the question.


15 THE COURT: That’s correct. It’s not.


16 MR. MESEREAU: Let me rephrase my question,


17 Your Honor. I’ll withdraw that one.


18 Q. Mr. Davy, does the document you just looked


19 at refresh your recollection about Gavin being late


20 to class?


21 A. Yes.


22 Q. And was that a problem with him while he


23 attended your school?


24 A. On occasion, yes.


25 Q. Do you recall a problem with Gavin banging


26 on doors at your school?

27 A. Yes.


28 Q. Do you recall Gavin being consistently 6929


1 warned about his bad behavior?


2 A. Yes.


3 Q. Do you recall problems with Gavin arguing


4 with teachers?


5 A. Yes.


6 Q. Do you recall problems with Gavin arguing


7 with students?


8 A. No, I don’t.


9 Q. Would it refresh your recollection just to


10 look at those records again?


11 A. Sure.


12 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?


13 THE COURT: Yes.


14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Have you had a chance to


15 look at that record?


16 A. Yes.


17 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, before counsel


18 asks his next question, I want to interpose an


19 objection to lack of foundation as to whether he’s


20 aware of those records. Has he ever seen them?


21 MR. MESEREAU: Just refreshing recollection,


22 Your Honor.


23 THE COURT: All right. The objection as to


24 lack of foundation is overruled.


25 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall, Mr. Davy,


26 problems with Gavin arguing with another student?


27 A. From those records, yes.


28 Q. Do you recall a problem with Gavin having a 6930


1 negative impact on his class?


2 A. Yes.


3 Q. Do you recall problems with him jumping


4 around, quote, “like retarded people”?


5 A. Yes.


6 Q. Do you recall problems with Gavin mumbling


7 in class?


8 A. Yes.


9 Q. Do you recall your having to detain Gavin


10 for disciplinary problems?


11 A. Yes.


12 Q. And what is the detention procedure that you


13 would have used with him?


14 A. Well, basically you have to stay after


15 school for an hour.


16 Q. Okay. And do you recall a problem with him


17 that required lunch detention?


18 A. Well, a number of people can assign


19 detention, so I don’t recall that. But I’m guessing


20 that he served lunch detention.


21 Q. Would it refresh your recollection if I just


22 show you the records?


23 A. If it’s there, it happened.


24 MR. MESEREAU: May I approach, Your Honor?


25 THE COURT: I think the problem that we have


26 is that I overruled an objection by Mr. Sneddon


27 about foundation, but the — when counsel asks you


28 if it refreshes your recollection, that doesn’t mean 6931


1 that you then testify about what’s in the record.


2 It means do you independently — now do you


3 independently remember this?


4 For example, “Do you know if he was late for


5 school?” And you say, “I don’t remember.” Then he


6 says, “Well, will this refresh your recollection?”


7 And you look at it. And that’s asking you, “Do


8 you” — “Now do you remember seeing him be late for


9 school,” not “What does the record say?”


10 THE WITNESS: Okay, I misunderstood that.


11 THE COURT: Okay. So —


12 THE WITNESS: The fact —


13 THE COURT: You don’t need to come back to


14 it. But the point we’re at is, you want to ask him


15 if he can refresh his recollection about — what was


16 it?


17 MR. MESEREAU: About Gavin having been


18 detained at lunch.


19 THE COURT: Okay. Would looking at these


20 records help you refresh your recollection about


21 being detained at lunch?


22 THE WITNESS: No, simply because oftentimes


23 those are reflections of dean’s entries or another


24 counselor’s entries.

Sneddon objected to Mesereau’s line of questioning and offered a lengthy explanation to his objections, so then Mesereau went back to Davy’s interview with Steve Robel on December 4th, 2003 to gain the foundation that he needed for the previous questions which Sneddon objected to.

25 MR. SNEDDON: Judge, could I —


26 Excuse me, Counsel.


27 THE COURT: Yeah.


28 MR. SNEDDON: I don’t want to be burdensome, 6932


1 but I think that I would move to strike —


2 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Microphone.


3 MR. SNEDDON: I don’t want to be burdensome,


4 but I move to strike all of the questions that he’s


5 used to refresh recollection until the proper


6 foundation can be established that this witness


7 actually remembered that, as opposed to some record.


8 MR. MESEREAU: I believe, Your Honor, the


9 witness has said he remembers it and spoke to a


10 sheriff in an interview and made those conclusions.


11 THE COURT: Well, the problem that’s come up


12 is whether or not he was refreshing his memory to


13 things he actually can remember, or if he was just


14 telling you what you showed him in the record.


15 So what I’ll do is go back and sustain the


16 foundation objection that he made before you asked


17 him these series of questions relating to Gavin’s


18 behavior and strike those answers. And then you can


19 proceed again to see —


20 MR. MESEREAU: Okay.


21 THE COURT: — what he remembers and what was


22 just in the record.


23 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Mr. Davy, I want to go


24 back over some questions I asked you earlier.


25 Now, you were interviewed by Sheriff Steve


26 Robel of the Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Office


27 approximately December 4th, 2003. Do you remember


28 that? 6933


1 A. Yes.


2 Q. And that was at your school in Hollywood,


3 right?


4 A. In Hancock Park, yeah.


5 Q. And for the purpose of that interview, you


6 obtained Gavin’s cumulative school files and his


7 disciplinary file, correct?


8 A. I did. But one of the things that you need


9 to understand is that there was another office that


10 also handled discipline, other than the counseling


11 office. And so some of the records that I think


12 you’re referring to came out of that office.


13 Q. Okay. But you did tell Sergeant Robel that


14 you had obtained Gavin’s cumulative school files and


15 his discipline file from Bonnie Murrow, right?


16 A. She took my place when I transferred, so she


17 wasn’t there at that time.


18 Q. Do you recall telling Sergeant Robel that


19 you had obtained Gavin’s cumulative school files and


20 his discipline file from Bonnie Murrow?


21 A. I believe that was after I left the school.


22 Q. Okay. But you did obtain those files,


23 correct?


24 A. I went to obtain them. I think they were


25 under subpoena.


26 Q. Do you recall meeting with Sergeant Steve


27 Robel in a principal’s office to review and discuss


28 the files’ contents? 6934


1 A. Yes.


2 Q. And you did, in fact, discuss those contents


3 with Sergeant Robel, right?


4 A. Yes.


5 Q. You gave Sergeant Robel a brief history of


6 the schools Gavin had recently attended, true?


7 A. True.


8 Q. They were LeConte Middle School for sixth


9 grade, right?


10 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to


11 object as hearsay.


12 THE COURT: Sustained.

Due to many negative referrals from Gavin’s teachers, Davy counseled Gavin about his behavior in an attempt to get him to shape up, and he met with Janet as well:

13 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Had you counseled Gavin in


14 your position at Burroughs?


15 A. Yes.


16 Q. And what had you counseled Gavin about?


17 A. Disruptive behavior in the classroom.


18 Q. Why did you counsel Gavin about his


19 disruptive behavior in the classroom?


20 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, this has been


21 asked and answered.


22 MR. MESEREAU: If it’s in the record, Your


23 Honor, I don’t have a problem. But I wasn’t sure


24 if — you’d asked me to go over this again.


25 MR. SNEDDON: Not this. Sorry, I apologize.


26 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.


27 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Why did you counsel Gavin?


28 A. I was receiving referrals from his classroom 6935


1 teachers.

2 Q. Were they negative referrals?


3 A. Yes.


4 Q. Were they consistently negative referrals?


5 A. Yes.


6 Q. Was it normal procedure when you received


7 consistently negative referrals about a student that


8 you try to counsel that student?


9 A. Yes.


10 Q. Did you have many counseling sessions with


11 Gavin about his poor behavior?


12 A. Yes.


13 Q. And do you know approximately how many you


14 had?


15 A. Probably a half a dozen.


16 Q. Did you counsel him individually or with


17 others present, if you know?


18 A. Individually.


19 Q. Is that the normal procedure for that type


20 of counseling?


21 A. Yes. Oftentimes with a parent, too,


22 present.


23 Q. Did you also counsel Gavin with any parent


24 present?


25 A. Yes.


26 Q. And what parent was typically present for


27 those meetings?


28 A. Miss Ventura. And sometimes Miss Ventura 6936


1 and Mr. Jackson.


2 Q. Okay. Did you tell Ms. Ventura that Gavin’s


3 behavior was disruptive and challenging?


4 A. Yes.


5 Q. Did you tell Ms. Ventura that Gavin would


6 routinely act up in class?


7 A. Yes.


8 Q. Did you tell Ms. Ventura that he displayed


9 poor cooperation with students and teachers?


10 A. Yes.


11 Q. Did you tell Ms. Ventura that Gavin would


12 create situations in which he had an audience to


13 view his poor behavior?


14 A. Yes.


15 Q. And did you tell Ms. Ventura that his grades


16 were consistently low throughout his schooling?


17 A. I think she knew that.


18 Q. Okay. Do you recall meeting with Jay


19 Jackson to talk about Gavin’s poor behavior?


20 A. With — with Miss Ventura present.


21 Q. Yes. But you did meet with Miss Ventura and


22 Jay Jackson to talk about Gavin’s consistently


23 disruptive behavior, right?


24 A. Yes. Yes.


25 Q. And Gavin was present at those meetings,


26 correct?


27 A. Correct.


28 Q. And you told Ms. Ventura that you had seen 6937


1 no definitive change in Gavin’s demeanor or attitude


2 or academic performance from the period prior to


3 February 2003 to the time following his return to


4 school on March 17th, 2003, right?


5 A. Right.

Here is more of Davy’s testimony about Gavin’s misbehavior, including singing in class!

6 Q. Now, you indicated that at some point,


7 Mr. Coffman went to Gavin’s home; is that correct?


8 A. That’s correct.


9 Q. Do you know where that was?


10 A. Not offhand. I mean, we use school records


11 for that. I don’t have access to that right now.


12 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Coffman find


13 anyone home?


14 A. No.


15 Q. Did you meet with Mr. Coffman to talk about


16 that issue?


17 A. Yes.


18 Q. Was it Mr. Coffman’s responsibility to try


19 and locate Ms. Arvizo?


20 A. Yes.


21 Q. And at some point, to your knowledge, he did


22 locate her, correct?


23 A. Well, what they typically do is talk to


24 neighbors and leave business cards with people. And


25 at some point she contacted me.


26 Q. She contacted you and gave her permission to


27 have Mr. Amen check out her sons, correct?


28 A. Correct. 6938


1 MR. SNEDDON: Object. Calls for a


2 conclusion. It’s the same question that was asked


3 before.


4 THE COURT: Sustained.


5 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Do you recall a problem


6 with Gavin Arvizo singing in the classroom?


7 A. No.


8 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to look


9 at these school records?


10 A. Like I said, those records may have been


11 written by someone else.


12 Q. Okay. Well, the question would be if you


13 remember.


14 A. No, I do not.


15 Q. Is it possible they would refresh your


16 recollection about that, since you counseled him on


17 those issues?


18 A. I didn’t — I wasn’t the only person that


19 counseled him.


20 Q. Well, let me ask you this: You don’t


21 remember an issue of him singing in class, right?


22 A. Right.


23 Q. If you look at some records, might they


24 refresh your recollection about that problem?


25 A. Well, it will refresh my memory that it


26 happened, but that I may not have handled it. I


27 don’t know who wrote those records.


28 Q. I’m only asking you about your memory about 6939


1 whether it happened, okay?


2 A. I don’t have a recollection.


3 Q. Might it refresh your recollection to look


4 at the records?


5 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object to the


6 question. He says — it’s asked and answered.


7 THE COURT: All right. The witness is just


8 trying to follow my instructions. Go ahead and show


9 him the record.


10 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.


11 Q. Have you had a chance to look at that school


12 record?


13 A. I have.


14 Q. Does it refresh your recollection about any


15 problem in that regard?


16 A. No.


17 Q. Okay. Do you recall problems with Gavin


18 disrupting test-taking?


19 A. No.


20 Q. Is that something you recall counseling him


21 about?


22 A. My general recollections of counseling him


23 were disruptive behavior. Specifically whether it


24 was testing or singing, whatever, it doesn’t — I


25 can’t speak to that.


26 Q. Okay. Did you talk to various teachers at


27 the school about Gavin’s consistently disruptive


28 behavior? 6940


1 A. Yes.


2 Q. How many teachers did you talk to about his


3 disruptive behavior, if you remember?


4 A. Well, I’m sure I spoke to the ones that were


5 writing referrals.


6 Q. Were a lot of his teachers writing


7 referrals?


8 A. The students at that grade level were in a


9 group of teachers that had the same students all


10 day. So generally if one teacher had a problem in


11 that group, they all had a problem.

Here is Davy’s testimony about Gavin’s misconduct with Mr. Geraldt:

12 Q. Now, the prosecutor asked you questions


13 about a teacher named Geraldt; is that correct?


14 A. Geraldt.


15 Q. And I believe you said words to the effect


16 you thought he was somewhat — acted in — somewhat


17 in a paramilitary kind of way?


18 A. Yes.


19 Q. What did you mean by that?


20 A. Well, he had a kind of drill instructor


21 demeanor, I mean, when he was dealing with students


22 that were late to class or misbehaving.


23 Q. But Gavin had many other teachers besides


24 Mr. Geraldt complaining about him, didn’t he?


25 A. In fact, I don’t think he had Mr. Geraldt as


26 a classroom teacher. I think he probably had him


27 for his ROTC, his extracurricular —


28 Q. So the disruptive behavior that you’ve been 6941


1 talking about was disruptive behavior in the


2 classroom, correct?


3 A. Correct.


4 Q. And those were classroom teachers that were


5 referring these problems to you, right?

6 A. Correct.


7 Q. Now, you said Mr. Geraldt taught a — was it


8 an after-school type of program?


9 A. Well, he was an eighth grade science


10 teacher, but he also had an ROTC class that


11 sometimes met after school and on Saturdays. And he


12 also ran the detention room after school.


13 Q. And did you think he was too strict in the


14 ROTC program?


15 A. I don’t know if he was too strict in his


16 ROTC program.


17 Q. Okay. But you mentioned his paramilitary


18 behavior. Was that in the ROTC program?


19 A. No, that was in his dealing with students on


20 the yard or in the morning when they were coming in


21 late.


22 Q. Okay. Okay. Do you recall him interacting


23 with Gavin at all?


24 A. I do not recall that.


25 Q. If he had, would it be because Gavin was


26 late?


27 MR. SNEDDON: Object; calls for speculation.


28 THE COURT: Sustained. 6942


1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Was one of Mr. Geraldt’s


2 functions to deal with late students?


3 A. Yes.


4 Q. And how would that work? I mean, if someone


5 was late, how would they get to Mr. Geraldt?


6 A. Well, he did not have a home room which met


7 first thing in the morning, so Mr. Geraldt was


8 assigned to process students at the front door that


9 were late coming in.


10 Q. So he would simply wait at the front door?


11 A. Yeah. Everybody had to pass through the


12 front door. People with passes or notes from home


13 would proceed on. People that didn’t would be


14 processed by him.


15 Q. And the procedure — excuse me. The


16 procedure he followed if he met someone at the front


17 door who was late was what? What would he do?


18 A. Well, he would write them a detention slip.


19 Q. Okay. And would that detention slip be


20 handed to the student?


21 A. Yes.


22 Q. And was there a procedure dictating what the


23 student should do with that detention slip?


24 A. Yes.


25 Q. And what were they supposed to do with the


26 detention slip?


27 A. One, they were supposed to get it signed by


28 their parent and do their detention. It was an NCR 6943


1 paper, so we kept the copy.


2 Q. Would the detention typically be done that


3 day?


4 A. No.


5 Q. When would it typically be done?


6 A. The next day after the parents were


7 notified.


8 Q. And was the proof that parents were notified


9 their signature on the slip?


10 A. Yes.


11 Q. Would someone actually talk to the parent


12 directly?


13 A. Somebody from school?


14 Q. Yes.


15 A. Not unless they didn’t do the detention.


16 Q. Okay. Now, you do recall problems with


17 Gavin being late, correct?


18 A. My recollection is more clear on the


19 discipline inside the classroom, the disruption in


20 the classroom.

Mesereau questioned Davy about his meeting with Sneddon prior to testifying, and then ended his cross examination. Sneddon refused to redirect examine Davy:

21 Q. Okay. Now, when did you — excuse me.


22 Have you spoken to any prosecutor about your


23 testimony today?


24 A. Yes.


25 Q. And when was that?


26 A. Last night.


27 Q. Okay. Who did you speak to?


28 A. Mr. Sneddon. 6944


1 Q. Okay. Did he call you?


2 A. Yes.


3 Q. And you spoke to him about what you were


4 going to be asked today?


5 A. We — he just looked at my grand jury


6 testimony and had questions about that.


7 Q. Okay. And did he ask you questions about


8 what you would be saying today?


9 A. No, he was just clearing up what I had said,


10 making him understand what I said during the grand


11 jury testimony.


12 Q. Have you reviewed your grand jury


13 transcript?


14 A. I have.


15 Q. And how did you get it?


16 A. I got it online.


17 Q. Okay. And so you and Mr. Sneddon discussed


18 what you said before the grand jury last night,


19 right?


20 A. Yes.


21 Q. Okay. How long a discussion was that?


22 A. Twenty minutes.


23 Q. Okay. Did you and Mr. Sneddon discuss


24 Gavin’s poor record for discipline in that call?


25 A. Briefly.


26 Q. Excuse me?


27 A. Briefly.


28 Q. Okay. Did you and Mr. Sneddon discuss your 6945


1 interview with Sheriff Robel?


2 A. No.


3 Q. You did discuss Mr. Geraldt, correct?


4 A. Correct.


5 Q. Did Mr. Sneddon bring up the name “Geraldt”


6 in that conversation?


7 A. Yes.


8 Q. Did he tell you he would ask you questions


9 about Mr. Geraldt today?


10 A. I don’t think so. He just wanted me to tell


11 him about it.


12 Q. In that conversation, did you inform Mr.


13 Sneddon that Mr. Geraldt had not actually been a


14 classroom teacher for Gavin?


15 A. I don’t think so.


16 Q. Okay. Did you talk about Mr. Geraldt’s


17 responsibilities at the door of the school?


18 A. Yes.


19 Q. Did you talk about his responsibilities in


20 the ROTC program?


21 A. Briefly.


22 Q. Okay.


23 THE COURT: Counsel?


24 MR. MESEREAU: Yes, Your Honor.


25 THE COURT: We’ll take our break.




27 (Recess taken.)


28 // 6946


1 MR. MESEREAU: Thank you, Your Honor.


2 Q. Mr. Davy, you met the gentleman who


3 identified himself as Vinnie Amen, didn’t you?


4 A. Yes.


5 Q. And you expressed surprise at how young he


6 seemed to be, right?


7 A. I believe so.


8 Q. And you described him as business-like, real


9 cooperative and wearing dressy casual clothes,


10 right?


11 A. Right.


12 MR. MESEREAU: I have no further questions,


13 Your Honor.


14 THE COURT: Counsel?


15 MR. SNEDDON: No questions.


16 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may


17 step down.


18 Call your next witness.


19 MR. SNEDDON: Janet Williams.


20 THE COURT: Come to the front of the


21 courtroom, please.


22 When you get to the witness stand, please


23 remain standing. Face the clerk and raise your


24 right hand.

The next prosecution witness was Janet Williams, a retired Santa Barbara County Sheriff with 29 years of experience. She seized several art books and nudist magazines from the downstairs portion of Jackson’s bedroom suite, and her entire direct examination consisted of her being asked to identify the evidence she seized.

Under cross examination by Robert Sanger, Williams was asked to describe the different type of books, photos, and memorabilia that she saw in Jackson’s bedroom during the raid:





8 Q. Detective Williams, how are you?


9 A. Fine, thank you.


10 Q. You — and you’re retired, correct?


11 A. Yes.


12 Q. May I still call you “detective”? Is that


13 okay?


14 A. I’m happy with it.

15 Q. When did you retire exactly? You said that,


16 and I missed it.


17 A. February of last year.


18 Q. February of —


19 A. 2004.


20 Q. 2004, okay.


21 You were active duty and still working


22 actively for the sheriff’s department in November of


23 2003; is that correct?


24 A. Yes.


25 Q. All right. Now, Detective Williams, I think


26 you said you’ve been a sheriff’s officer for 29


27 years; is that right?


28 A. Yes. 6973


1 Q. Okay. And in fact, if I’m not mistaken, you


2 were one of the first two female officers in the


3 Santa Barbara Sheriff’s Department; is that correct?


4 A. No.


5 Q. Okay. Close to it, in any event?


6 A. Close.


7 Q. There’s a story behind there that I haven’t


8 got quite right. But in any event, you have a long


9 career with the sheriff’s department; is that right?


10 A. Yes.


11 Q. And you have been a detective for how long?


12 A. I was a detective two different periods.


13 The last time in Coastal Station, which was ten


14 years. And then prior to that, it was at the main


15 station, which was for nine years.


16 Q. Okay. And part of what you did as a


17 detective was specialize in sex crimes; is that


18 right?


19 A. Yes.


20 Q. All right. So you have a great deal of


21 experience being the lead detective in sex offenses;


22 is that right?


23 A. I have some experience, yes.


24 Q. Well, when you say “some,” are you being


25 modest? You’ve had quite a number of cases where


26 you’ve been the lead officer —


27 A. Yes.


28 Q. — in sex cases, correct? 6974


1 A. Yes.


2 Q. All right. And in this particular case,


3 your assignment was to assist on one of the searches


4 that was occurring on November 18th, 2003; is that


5 correct?


6 A. Yes.


7 Q. And you were then — you were then not asked


8 to do anything else. You were given no other


9 assignments in this case; is that correct?


10 A. That’s correct.


11 Q. Now, if I understand what you did, you


12 focused your attention on that first floor.


13 And could I have the exhibits? I’d like


14 590, if you have it there.


15 MR. SNEDDON: It’s up there.


16 MR. SANGER: Oh, it’s up there?


17 May I approach to retrieve it?


18 THE COURT: Yes.


19 MR. SANGER: May I put this back up on the


20 screen, Your Honor?


21 Q. Now, you’ve already told us that this is the


22 first floor. But just so we’re oriented, for people


23 who are not oriented already, the boxes of books


24 that you referred to under the arrow are to the


25 right of a television, large screen T.V. console; is


26 that correct?


27 A. Yes, it is.


28 Q. All right. And there’s additional — an 6975


1 additional part of the room to the left on this


2 picture that you can’t see in the picture; is that


3 correct?


4 A. Yes.


5 Q. And did you search that entire area?


6 A. Yes.


7 Q. Behind the piano — in fact, do you have the


8 pointer there still?


9 Okay. Would you be kind enough to point to


10 the piano?


11 Okay. By the way, on the piano, was there a


12 letter from Steven Spielberg sitting there?


13 MR. SNEDDON: Object as immaterial, Your


14 Honor.


15 THE COURT: Overruled.


16 You may answer.


17 THE WITNESS: I don’t remember.


18 Q. BY MR. SANGER: All right. Behind the piano


19 that you just pointed to is an alcove area; is that


20 correct?


21 A. Yes.


22 Q. Can you point to that?


23 And there are quite a number of books in


24 that area as well, correct?


25 A. Yes.


26 Q. And that’s where you found 838; is that


27 right?


28 A. Yes. 6976


1 Q. Most of the books in that area are art


2 books; is that correct? Or art and entertainment


3 kind of books?


4 A. I believe so. I don’t remember exactly, but


5 I believe there were quite a number of those.


6 Q. All right. And then on the — where you’ve


7 drawn the other arrow to the boxes, and you


8 indicated you found the other exhibits that you’ve


9 talked about today, there are — there were a number


10 of boxes there; is that correct?


11 A. Yes.


12 Q. You don’t know whether those boxes were


13 coming or going or had been sitting there, do you?


14 A. Correct.


15 Q. You don’t know whether or not Mr. Jackson


16 had even looked inside those boxes, do you?


17 A. Correct.


18 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Jackson is an artist;


19 is that correct? A performer?


20 A. He’s a performer, yes.


21 Q. And he’s an artist. He writes and composes


22 music and choreographs dance, that sort of thing; is


23 that correct?


24 MR. SNEDDON: I’m going to object as


25 immaterial; lack of foundation.


26 THE COURT: Overruled.


27 You may answer.


28 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Is that correct? 6977


1 A. Yes.


2 Q. And you saw a tremendous number of books


3 that pertained to that sort of thing, art and dance


4 and entertainment, music, correct?


5 A. I remember seeing books of that nature, yes.


6 Q. Do you know if people send books to Mr.


7 Jackson?


8 MR. SNEDDON: Object; calls for speculation.


9 MR. SANGER: It’s a “yes” or “no,” Your


10 Honor.


11 THE COURT: Yes, you may answer “yes” or


12 “no.”


13 THE WITNESS: I don’t know if people send him


14 books.


15 Q. BY MR. SANGER: All right. Now, of all of


16 the books that you have identified — and I’m not


17 going to go through by number here. But out of all


18 of the books that you’ve identified, there are no


19 books in that group that are unlawful for an adult


20 to purchase; is that correct?


21 A. I don’t think there are.


22 Q. All right. And none of those books are


23 unlawful for an adult to possess in his home; is


24 that correct?


25 A. I believe you’re correct.


26 Q. You mentioned that — let’s put it this way:


27 You saw a number of these books. Let me see if I


28 can take them out, here. 6978


1 THE COURT: Are you through with the picture


2 up there?


3 MR. SANGER: Yes, Your Honor. And then


4 I’ll — thank you.


5 Q. I’ll just refer you for the moment to


6 Exhibit — the bag is 835 and the contents are 598


7 and following. Do you remember those magazines?


8 Would you like me to bring them to you?


9 A. I remember them basically, yes.

Next, Sanger asked Williams to explain the origins of the nudist magazines and art books that she confiscated from Jackson’s bedroom suite:

10 Q. Okay. These magazines are, I think you


11 said, from 1931; is that correct?


12 A. They’re from different years; 1935, ‘37,


13 that era.


14 Q. That’s true, actually. These are from 1935.


15 And the title of the publication is “The


16 Nudist”; is that correct?


17 A. Yes.


18 Q. These appear to be collector’s items, do

19 they not?


20 A. They could be.


21 Q. All right. And you have no information as


22 to whether or not Mr. Jackson even knew that they


23 were in the box; is that correct?


24 MR. SNEDDON: Object. It calls for


25 speculation.


26 THE COURT: I was going to say she could


27 answer “yes” or “no,” but anybody I’ve ever said


28 that to has never answered “yes” or “no.” 6979


1 (To the witness) Don’t answer that “yes” or


2 “no.”


3 (Laughter.)


4 THE WITNESS: But I should answer?




6 THE WITNESS: So, may I ask what the question


7 was again, please?


8 Q. BY MR. SANGER: I think His Honor is kidding


9 with you. You can answer “yes” or “no.”


10 Do you have any information as to whether or


11 not Mr. Jackson ever saw these nudist magazines?


12 A. I don’t have any information that he did or


13 did not see them.


14 (Laughter.)


15 MR. SANGER: There you go.


16 THE COURT: Someone following my


17 instructions.


18 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Now, in the part of Mr.


19 Jackson’s house that you searched, do you know how


20 many books were there total?


21 A. No, I do not.


22 Q. Were there thousands?


23 A. There were many books.


24 Q. Okay. At least hundreds?


25 A. Yes.

Here’s William’s description of the myriad of books that she saw elsewhere at Neverland, as well as some of the books that she confiscated:

26 Q. All right. And you went to some other


27 places in the residence other than that particular


28 room, did you not? 6980


1 A. Yes.


2 Q. What other places did you go to?


3 A. The second story, a pantry-like room, a


4 large room with multiple games and toys, and two


5 bedrooms.


6 Q. All right. And you saw books elsewhere in


7 the house besides where you were searching here in


8 this room; is that correct?


9 A. Some books.


10 Q. Did you — in order get to that room, you


11 had to walk down a hallway, right?


12 A. To the den area. Is that what you’re


13 talking about?


14 Q. Yes.


15 A. Yes.


16 Q. And that hallway was lined, floor to


17 ceiling, with bookshelves filled with books; is that


18 correct?


19 A. I don’t remember.


20 Q. Okay. That’s fair enough.


21 And there was a library just off of that


22 hallway as well. Did you take a look in that


23 library?


24 A. No.


25 Q. Okay. Now, you said you did go upstairs,


26 because you went into Mr. Jackson’s son’s room; is


27 that right?


28 A. Yes. 6981


1 Q. And right up there by his son’s room is an


2 alcove that is filled with children’s books; is that


3 correct?


4 A. Yes.


5 Q. All right. And again, there are hundreds of


6 books up there; is that right?


7 A. Yes.


8 Q. Did you have occasion to go to the arcade


9 where there is a room that is basically filled with


10 books?


11 A. Are you talking the same room that’s the


12 second story of the main residence?


13 Q. No, it’s a different building. The arcade


14 building.


15 A. I did not go there.


16 Q. All right. Of all the books that you saw,


17 you seized the ones that you felt might be of some


18 evidentiary value based on what you understood this


19 case to be about; is that correct?


20 A. Yes.


21 Q. All right. I’m going to ask you to take a


22 look at 599, and see if we can….


23 May I approach, Your Honor?


24 THE COURT: Yes.


25 Q. BY MR. SANGER: I’m going to show you 599.


26 That appears to be a book of photographs that were


27 taken some time ago; is that correct?


28 A. May I look through it? 6982


1 Q. Yes, please.


2 They appear to be old photographs?


3 A. They look like they could be old


4 photographs. They have the sepia tone into them.


5 Q. All right. And you said that as far as you


6 know, there’s nothing illegal about an adult


7 possessing that book in the United States, or in


8 California, let’s say?


9 A. Yes.


10 Q. The United States in general, okay.


11 Were you aware that that particular author,


12 that photographer, was prosecuted and acquitted


13 during the Nazi regime prior to World War II for


14 those very photographs?


15 MR. SNEDDON: Your Honor, I’m going to


16 object as immaterial.


17 THE COURT: Sustained.


18 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Let’s put it this way: As


19 you look at that, that appears to be a historic


20 book, a book of recording historic photographs; is


21 that correct?


22 A. I don’t know what you mean by that.


23 Q. All right. Did you do any research as to


24 any of the authors of any of these books?


25 A. No.


26 Q. All right. So in other words, that day you


27 were there, your job was to look at things and see


28 if they appeared to be within the search warrant and 6983


1 you seized them?


2 A. Yes.


3 Q. All right. All right. Let me show you —


4 let me ask you, before I show you something else,


5 you seized some other things that have not been


6 introduced into evidence here; is that correct?


7 A. Yes.


8 Q. All right. You seized some paperwork from


9 Mr. Jackson’s son’s room; is that right?


10 A. I believe so.


11 Q. Okay. And you seized some other things.


12 You seized a Christmas invitation from Liza


13 Minnelli; is that correct?


14 A. Yes.


15 Q. All right. Now, I’m also going to show you


16 Exhibit 838.


17 May I approach, Your Honor?


18 THE COURT: Yes.


19 MR. SANGER: And I’ll take this back, if I


20 may.


21 Q. That’s 838. Before I ask you about it, your


22 procedure in searching through all these books and


23 boxes and things was to — was to find books that,


24 by their cover, looked like they would warrant some


25 further interest on your part, right?


26 A. Usually I would open up the books to try to


27 see what was inside also.


28 Q. Okay. But you didn’t flip through every 6984


1 single book in that room?


2 A. No.


3 Q. All right. So first of all, you’d look at


4 something that looked like it might be a book that


5 had something to do with sex. Is that pretty much


6 what you were looking for?


7 A. Yes.


8 Q. All right. And then once you found that


9 book, you would look through it and see if you felt


10 that it was the type of book that you thought should


11 be seized in this case, correct?


12 A. Yes.


13 Q. All right. And you’ve indicated you seized


14 some other items besides that, but when it came to


15 these books that related to some sexual topic, you


16 would actually look in them and make a determination


17 that you should take it, correct?


18 A. Yes.


19 Q. All right. Now, on No. 837 — I’m sorry,


20 what is that? 838, the bag 838, and inside the bag


21 is the book, right?


22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you seized — have you looked inside the


24 book?


25 A. Yes.


26 Q. Okay. Now, again, you’re an experienced sex


27 crimes detective, correct?


28 A. Yes. 6985


1 Q. So you’re not shocked by seeing pictures of


2 the human body; is that right?


3 A. I can still be shocked.


4 Q. Okay. Were you shocked by that book that’s


5 called Poo-Chi, P-o-o-C-h-i?


6 A. Yes.


7 Q. And you described it as — if I get your


8 exact — do you recall how you described it?


9 A. How I described it?


10 Q. Yes. Did you describe it as a book


11 containing photographs of the female groin area?


12 A. I may have. I’m not sure if I did or if


13 that’s the way Detective Padilla understood what I


14 said.


15 Q. All right. Well, did you say something like


16 that to him?


17 A. Probably.


18 Q. And does that appear to be what you


19 described to him?


20 A. Well, some of it looks like it, yes.


21 Q. Okay. So the question is, is that pretty


22 much what you told Detective Padilla, that you have


23 a book that appears to be photographs of the female


24 groin area?


25 A. Probably.


26 Q. All right. And, Detective, as you look at


27 that a little more carefully, those are pictures of


28 armpits and other bodily folds, that are not from 6986


1 genital areas, that are made to look like that as a


2 spoof of some sort; is that correct?


3 A. Some of them could be. And some of them I


4 don’t know.


5 Q. All right. And once again, there’s nothing


6 illegal about owning that book, is there?


7 A. Not that I’m aware.


8 Q. And you don’t know if Mr. Jackson even ever


9 saw that before, do you?


10 A. I do not know.


11 MR. SANGER: Okay. Thank you. I have no


12 further questions.


13 MR. SNEDDON: No questions.


14 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You’re


15 excused.


16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.


17 THE COURT: We’ll take our recess.


18 Remember, tomorrow’s a half day. See you


19 tomorrow at 8:30.


20 (The proceedings adjourned at 2:30 p.m.)


21 –o0o—

To be continued:

One Comment leave one →
  1. Nan permalink
    August 23, 2013 10:59 pm

    This is so sad really..Why on Earth would an invitation from Liza Minelli be confiscated by the detectives??
    And this detective takes a book that she thinks is a book of female groins and thinks that somehow ties into a crime against a male child..And she finds the book shocking and she has been working sex crimes for decades..
    And it isnt even an actual book of nudity.
    What does this say about the desperation of these detectives during this raid to try and come up with something incriminating , that they would grab some nudist magazines for the 1930s and this art book.
    It is just incredible.

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