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April 20th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Brian Barron (Direct & Cross Examination), Part 3 of 3

September 8, 2013

On June 21st, 2002, Chris Tucker invited the Arvizos to Neverland, and they drove the ATV’s unto the main road outside of Neverland, and into the nearby town of Los Olivos:

2 Q. Okay. I want to — just because it’s in


3 sequence in the exhibits, let me show you 308, and


4 this is a different kind of a form. And we’ll be


5 able to go a lot quicker here. And actually, we’ll


6 skip quite a ways ahead in a moment, just so


7 everybody has something to anticipate.


8 308, okay, and I’ll try to get as much of a


9 wide angle as I can and still read it. Do you see


10 that? It says, “Security Clearance and General


11 Information”?


12 A. Yes. “Guest Information.”


13 Q. Or, I’m sorry, I can’t read it. All right.


14 I can read it here. “Guest Information.”


15 And this is information about the people who


16 were arriving. And actually, this dates back a


17 little out of sequence. It dates back to 6-21-02,


18 correct?


19 A. Correct.


20 Q. And basically this is information so you


21 know how to treat the guests and what they can do;


22 is that right?


23 A. We know who’s coming and what they’re able


24 to do.


25 Q. Okay. So this tells you the estimated time


26 of arrival; is that correct?


27 A. Correct.


28 Q. And you never know exactly if somebody’s 7080


1 going to arrive on time, but it gives you a


2 heads-up, right?


3 A. Right.


4 Q. And it shows Chris Tucker, Gavin Arvizo,


5 Star Arvizo, Adrian, Kelly, Gavellin and Aubrey, it


6 looks like.


7 So on 6-21, this was telling you these


8 people are really going to show up, right?


9 A. Yes.


10 Q. And then at the bottom, it says Mr. Jackson


11 has cleared the guests to have full access, correct?


12 A. Correct.


13 Q. So Chris Tucker and his guests are allowed


14 to have full access to all of these activities; is


15 that right?


16 A. That’s right.


17 Q. And those activities include the hill house,


18 pool, spa, water fort, dance studio, and then quad


19 runners; is that right?


20 A. Yes.


21 Q. And what were the quad runners?


22 A. ATVs.


23 Q. Were people supposed to keep those on the


24 property?


25 A. They were property of the ranch.


26 Q. But, I mean, they weren’t supposed to go


27 drive on Figueroa Mountain Road.


28 A. Correct. 7081


1 Q. And they definitely were not supposed to go


2 into Los Olivos.


3 A. No.


4 Q. All right. And then there’s scooters,


5 right?


6 A. Uh-huh.


7 Q. Golf carts?


8 A. Yes.


9 Q. Jet skis. The main house. And written in


10 is “horseback riding”?


11 A. Yes.


12 Q. So Mr. Jackson, according to this record,


13 kept in the ordinary course of business, had cleared


14 the guests to have full access to all of those


15 activities?


16 A. Yes.


17 Q. And those guests would be Mr. Tucker and the


18 Arvizos and his other guests; is that correct?


19 A. I believe Mr. Tucker, there, says he was the


20 driver. Whether or not he had access to that stuff


21 at the same time, probably, but —


22 Q. Do you know who Chris Tucker is?


23 A. Yes.


24 Q. Okay. Who is Chris Tucker?


25 A. He was an employee of the ranch.


26 Q. Okay. Are you thinking —


27 A. Or of Mr. Jackson.


28 Q. Are you thinking of Chris Carter? 7082


1 A. I’m sorry. Chris Tucker. Excuse me. I


2 apologize.


3 Q. Chris Tucker is the actor?


4 A. Chris Tucker is the actor, yes. I’m sorry.


5 Q. Do you remember him visiting the ranch?


6 A. Yes.


7 Q. And you would assume Chris Tucker would


8 have —


9 A. Chris Tucker, I’m sorry. Thank you.


10 Q. He would have full access to —


11 A. Yes, he would.


12 Q. All right. Now, if we go to Exhibit 309,


13 you may recall — let’s show 309. There we go.


14 You may recall that when we went through the


15 gate logs, it appeared that Gavin, Star and Davellin


16 came back and Mr. Tucker was not there; is that


17 correct?


18 A. Correct.


19 Q. Now, when they came back this time, they’re


20 estimated to arrive sometime in the evening. And if


21 I’m not mistaken, I think they got there very early


22 in the morning the next day. But here, Mr. Tucker


23 is not there. They were not cleared for the quad


24 runner or the jet skis; is that correct?


25 A. Yes.


26 Q. And they were not cleared for horseback


27 riding; is that correct?


28 A. Correct. 7083


1 Q. Based on your experience and understanding


2 of these records kept in the ordinary course of


3 business, who would have given those instructions?


4 A. Those instructions there?


5 Q. Yes.


6 A. They would — this would have come to us


7 through the administration office.


8 Q. All right. So somebody in the chain of


9 command above decided that, under these


10 circumstances, that these children should not have


11 access to the quads or the jet ski?


12 A. Correct.


13 Q. All right. We’ll go to Exhibit 310. And


14 this will be the second page of 310. And it appears


15 that — 7-1-02. And it appears that Gavin, Star and


16 Davellin stayed overnight, correct?


17 A. Correct.


18 Q. And then they left at 2114 hours, which


19 would be 9:14 in the evening, correct?


20 A. Correct.


21 Q. Now, then we skip ahead in time to September


22 the 15th, which is the next record in the exhibit


23 book which was presented to you by Mr. Auchincloss.


24 And that shows 9-15-02; is that correct?


25 A. That’s correct.


26 Q. And on 9-15-02, we have Chris Tucker, Gavin,


27 Star, sister, it looks like it says Chris’s nephew;


28 is that correct? 7084


1 A. Correct.


2 Q. There’s a star there. What does that mean?


3 A. Probably means that the time was either not


4 written down when they came in, or it was — at that


5 time, whomever was checking people in the gate


6 failed to write them in, or we just didn’t know when


7 they came in.


8 Q. Okay. So every once in a while somebody


9 makes a mistake, true?


10 A. Yes.


11 Q. That will happen.


12 And then it shows on that day, which is


13 9-15-02, Mr. Tucker and his group, including Gavin,


14 Star, sister, and Chris’s nephew, all stayed


15 overnight; is that correct?


16 A. Correct.


17 Q. I’m going to go to Exhibit 312. 9-16-02.


18 And here we have a record that Chris Tucker and his


19 group stayed overnight. It also shows “bus driver,”


20 correct?


21 A. Yes.


22 Q. Do you remember if Chris Tucker had a bus?


23 A. I don’t know if he personally had a bus. I


24 don’t remember.


25 Q. Well, looks like the bus driver left with


26 Chris Tucker and the rest of the party at 6:54 in


27 the morning; is that correct?


28 A. Yes. 7085


1 Q. Now, do you know if Mr. Jackson was at the


2 ranch at these various times that we’ve covered so


3 far?


4 A. I don’t know.


5 Q. Okay. Now, 9-26 — I’m sorry, this would be


6 Exhibit 313, the second page. 9-26 at the top, ‘02.


7 And I think you can read this, but if you can’t,


8 just tell me.


9 I don’t know if I made it better or worse.


10 Okay. All right. Looks like Martin Bashir


11 arrived at two o’clock in the afternoon and left at


12 6:13; is that correct?


13 A. Yes.


14 Q. And it looks like he probably arrived with


15 some other people there. There’s three other


16 people, correct?


17 A. Correct.


18 Q. We see — we see Gary Hearn arrived at 2:30;


19 is that correct?


20 A. Yes.


21 Q. All right. Looks like somebody adjusted


22 that, but that was the way it was entered at the


23 time; is that correct?


24 A. Correct.


25 Q. All right. And it looks like — now, first


26 of all, Gary Hearn is who?

27 A. Gary’s a driver.


28 Q. He’s a driver for Michael Jackson and for 7086


1 Neverland; is that correct?


2 A. Yes.


3 Q. He often drives a limousine or whatever car


4 is appropriate to transport people, correct?


5 A. Correct.


6 Q. And Gary Hearn seems to have arrived with


7 Gavin, Star, and “Davida” or “Davila” or something,


8 whatever that says, right?


9 A. Yes.


10 Q. All at the same time. And then it appears


11 that they were there from 2:30 and stayed overnight;


12 is that right?


13 A. Correct.


14 Q. And then I’m going to put up 314, the second


15 page. And it shows Gavin, Star, and “Davida” – I


16 think that’s what it says – stayed over that night


17 as well, correct?


18 A. Correct.


19 Q. And then I’m going to put up 315, page two,


20 for 9-28, okay? I’m going to go down to the bottom,


21 and it looks like Gavin, Star, and “Davida,” or


22 whatever that says – all right? – stayed overnight,


23 but they left at four o’clock in the afternoon; is


24 that correct?


25 A. That’s correct.


26 Q. And it appears that Gary — down at the


27 bottom, that’s probably “Gary Hearn”; is that


28 correct? 7087


1 A. Most likely, yes.


2 Q. And Gary Hearn came and went, but he came in


3 about three o’clock, and then left at exactly four


4 o’clock; is that correct?


5 A. Yes.


6 Q. So based on that, you would assume that he


7 drove the — Gavin, Star, and whoever Davida is; is


8 that correct?


9 A. Yes.


10 Q. And it looks like it — it’s really hard to


11 see what that says there, but it does look like


12 there’s an entry, and I just want to clarify it so I


13 don’t get confused. It says something like “Maxim


14 Bahit”?


15 A. Your guess is as good as mine.


16 Q. All right. It’s not “Martin Bashir,”


17 though?


18 A. It doesn’t look like “Martin Bashir” to me.


19 Q. All right. Now, if somebody checks out —


20 in other words, I say “checks out.” If somebody


21 goes through the gate, out, and then they go to


22 dinner or to town or whatever, and they come back,


23 when they come back, they should be logged back in


24 again with the time?


25 A. Yes.


26 Q. Does that sometimes not happen?


27 A. For employees? Sometimes.


28 Q. For anybody. 7088


1 A. Yeah, I’m sure there’s times when it


2 happens.


3 Q. All right. Now, I’m going to skip way


4 ahead, and you guys are going to be happy to hear


5 that, to Exhibit 331.


6 Okay. I’m sorry. Better yet, 333. And I’m


7 going to put 333 up. This is the second page of it.


8 And there’s a — wide angle here. Okay. A medical


9 report log; is that correct?


10 A. Correct.


11 Q. And that logs in various medical emergencies


12 or skinned knees or anything else that happens that


13 requires somebody to respond?


14 A. Each medical report for the year.


15 Q. And on the other side, actually the front


16 side of 333, there’s a medical report for Star


17 Arvizo; is that correct?


18 A. Yes.


19 Q. Can you read that?


20 A. Not well. Actually, that really hurts my


21 eyes. If you could bring it up, that would be


22 great.


23 Q. Actually, I don’t blame you.


24 May I approach, Your Honor?


25 THE COURT: Yes.


26 Q. BY MR. SANGER: I’m giving you a copy of


27 that page. Can you take a quick look at it there?


28 And what I want to ask you is, basically, 7089


1 does this document reflect that Star Arvizo


2 apparently had a fall on a scooter, slid on some


3 loose gravel or something?


4 A. Yes.


5 Q. And he had minor scrapes to his left knee,


6 right ankle and right knee?


7 A. Yes.


8 Q. So that sort of thing was documented


9 carefully at Neverland, and that’s an example of it;


10 is that right?


11 A. Yes.

Here are the logs from February and March 2003, during which the Arvizos were in and out of Neverland. Notice what Barron had to say about the checkout process of the Arvizos during the night of Feb. 12th, 2003:

2 Q. BY MR. SANGER: And I’m going to skip to


3 page 116. That’s MJ00116. And I’m going to show


4 you this here.


5 Now, this appears to be the format that was


6 being used in 2003; is that correct?


7 A. Correct.


8 Q. And I think it’s a little different, at


9 least a little different than some of the forms that


10 were used because under “Guest Information” you also


11 have “Ranch Vehicle Information” —


12 A. Yes.


13 Q. — showing when people come in and out.


14 On this particular document — oops, sorry.


15 Let’s try here. This is for February the 6th, 2003;


16 is that correct?


17 A. Correct.


18 Q. And it appears that at 2243 hours — let’s


19 see. 2245 hours, it should be 10:45 at night, it


20 says, “Owner and guests”; is that correct?


21 A. Yeah. Could I see that page? I — I would


22 assume it does.


23 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: May I see that?


24 MR. SANGER: May I approach?


25 THE COURT: Yes.


26 THE WITNESS: Based on the paperwork that we


27 fill out, we would not have put “owner” or


28 “Mr. Jackson” or anything that would represent him 7091


1 on this paperwork. In the time that I worked there,


2 I have never done that, that I can remember.


3 It could be — it could be, “Owner and


4 guest,” which I didn’t write it, but definitely


5 could be.


6 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Okay. That’s fair enough.


7 I’ll ask you about that a little more so it makes


8 sense.


9 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Could I see that again?


10 MR. SANGER: Sure.


11 Q. This is Mr. Jackson’s home, right?


12 A. Correct.


13 Q. And so you were not — not only not required


14 to, but you were really not supposed to write down


15 Mr. Jackson comes and goes and log him in like


16 somebody else; is that right?


17 A. That is correct.


18 Q. Okay. You saw what you thought said, “Owner


19 and guest,” may have said, “Owner and guest,” you’re


20 not sure —


21 A. No.


22 Q. — but it would not be typical for you to


23 write down “Owner”?


24 A. I’ve never done it. The whole time I was


25 there, I’d never done it.


26 Q. That’s fine. And it does — it looks like


27 it says, “Guest.”


28 A. Yes. 7092


1 Q. All right. It doesn’t say who the guests


2 are?


3 A. No.


4 Q. And that’s somewhat unusual, isn’t it?


5 A. If someone had come in with Mr. Jackson, we


6 don’t routinely stop his vehicle and look in his


7 vehicle. Again, it’s privacy for him. We try to


8 bother him as little as possible.


9 So if someone had — if that is “Owner and


10 guest” and someone had come with him, we would not


11 have just stopped his vehicle and, for the most


12 part, asked who was in there, unless we really felt


13 it was necessary.


14 MR. SANGER: Do you want to leave that on?




16 MR. SANGER: Okay. All right. I won’t put


17 it here. I’ll —


18 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Yeah, that’s fine.


19 Q. BY MR. SANGER: I want to see if we can

20 reconstruct this a little bit. Where it just says,


21 “Guests,” there are no names?


22 A. Correct.


23 Q. So does that suggest to you that those


24 guests were probably in a vehicle with Mr. Jackson?


25 A. It could have — yes, it could have been.


26 Q. All right. And now we’re going to go to —


27 and I’m sorry, that was on 2-6, February 6, 2003,


28 correct? I’ll put it up again if you want. 7093


1 A. Yes. That’s correct.


2 Q. All right. February 6th, 2003.


3 Do you know if Mr. Jackson was returning


4 from Miami that night?


5 A. I don’t know.


6 Q. Okay. All right. And you’re welcome to


7 look at this whole exhibit, if you want me to bring


8 the book down so you can see it, if you feel you


9 need to look at the pages in order or anything,


10 okay?


11 I’m going to put up 2-7-03, which is


12 MJ00120. And that is still a part of Exhibit 334,


13 okay? And you can see we’re referring to the “120”


14 down there on the bottom, just so we’re all


15 oriented. That’s what we call the Bates stamp


16 number.


17 This is for 2-7-03; is that correct?


18 A. Yes.


19 Q. All right. Now, if you look at the


20 guests — and I’m going to bring it a little closer


21 and give everybody a headache, all right? If you


22 look at the “Guests,” it appears that there’s an


23 M. Nicole Cascio —


24 A. Yes.


25 Q. — who stayed overnight; is that right?


26 A. Yes.


27 Q. And it looks like a Dr. Farshshian stayed


28 overnight; is that correct? 7094


1 A. Yes.


2 Q. Actually, I’m going backwards. He’s at the


3 top of that list, right?


4 A. Right.


5 Q. It looks like he left at 8:30 in the


6 morning, right?


7 A. Right.


8 Q. And then he may have come back at 10:15?


9 A. Yes.


10 Q. Okay. So let’s go down to — to “Marie


11 Nicole,” or it says, “M,” something, Nicole Cascio.”


12 You assume that’s Marie Nicole?


13 A. Yes, uh-huh.


14 Q. So — it says stayed over or carried over,


15 so that would tell you she stayed overnight; is that


16 right?


17 A. Yes.


18 Q. Now that you think about that in conjunction


19 with the whatever-it-was “and guests,” does that


20 suggest that Marie Nicole Cascio was probably one of


21 the guests that came in the day before?


22 A. Do you have the other pages for this?


23 Q. I have —


24 A. There’s usually like three pages per day.


25 Q. Yes. Yes. You’re welcome to look at them.


26 We have to be careful because we’ve got the book


27 apart, and I want to put it back. So we have to


28 keep it in the same order here. 7095


1 Before I do, I’ll let you see the whole


2 thing, but it’s safe to say you’ve got Gavin Arvizo,


3 Star Arvizo, looks like “Daviella” now, Arvizo, Aldo


4 Cascio, and Mom Arvizo, right?


5 A. Correct.


6 Q. And those are all carry-overs. So that


7 would mean, to you, that they were there —


8 A. The night before.


9 Q. — the night before?


10 A. Prior to midnight of that day.


11 Q. Of this day, which was 2-7 —


12 A. Correct.


13 Q. — 03.


14 Okay. And it also appears that they then


15 continued to stay overnight on the 7th; is that


16 right?


17 A. Yes.


18 MR. SANGER: Okay. So now having said that,


19 if it’s all right with the Court, I’ll approach with


20 the book so that the witness can see everything in


21 context.


22 Q. And I’ll just speak loud for a moment, if I


23 can.


24 The pages are in the exact order of the


25 exhibit, so keep them in that same order, if you


26 would.


27 A. Yes.


28 At some point they came in on the 6th and 7096


1 were there on the 7th.


2 Q. All right. And as you look at that —


3 before I come up and retrieve it, as you look at


4 that, there’s no specific record where those


5 particular individuals, that is, the Cascios and the


6 Arvizos, were logged in by name as coming in.


7 A. No.


8 Q. Other than perhaps just that reference to


9 “Owner and guest,” or whatever it says; is that


10 correct?


11 A. Correct.


12 MR. SANGER: All right. May I approach to


13 retrieve the book, Your Honor?


14 THE COURT: Yes.


15 MR. SANGER: Okay. Thank you, sir.


16 Q. Now, I’m going to go to page 121 of the same


17 exhibit. It will still be 334 until further notice,


18 if that’s all right.


19 So it’s — it says 121, MJ00121 at the


20 bottom. And then this is — at the top, rather than


21 “Guest,” there are a number of people who are listed


22 there. And this is — there’s no date at the bottom


23 of this, correct?


24 A. Correct.


25 Q. So you need to try to ascertain the date by


26 figuring out where it falls within the context of


27 the other documents, right?


28 A. Correct. The — it would have been, again, 7097


1 with at least one, most likely two other pieces of


2 paper that — gate logs.


3 Q. All right. And for the purpose of — well,


4 I’ll withdraw that.


5 This shows that at the ranch, there were


6 quite a number of people; is that correct?


7 A. Yes.


8 Q. And it says, “CBS Entertainment” there; is


9 that correct?


10 A. Yes.


11 Q. Now, it appears that on that list — I won’t


12 read them all, but on that list is “Ed Bradley”;


13 is that right?


14 A. Yes.


15 Q. Are you familiar with Ed Bradley of CBS?


16 A. Yes.


17 Q. And Jack Sussman, is he a producer at CBS?


18 You don’t know?


19 A. I have no idea.


20 Q. That’s okay. There are a number of other


21 people associated with CBS there, right?


22 A. Yes.


23 Q. And it indicates that all the people


24 associated with CBS, at least down to the point that


25 it’s recorded — let me withdraw that.


26 It looks like Jack Sussman arrived at 9:40;


27 is that right?


28 A. Yes. 7098


1 Q. Doesn’t show that he was checked out?


2 A. No.


3 Q. Okay. We assume he’s not still there.


4 A. Yes.


5 Q. Okay. You got Ed Bradley. Can you read


6 that?


7 A. Yes. The times?


8 Q. Yeah, the times.


9 A. 10:30 to — it’s either 18 or 1900. So


10 6 or 7 p.m.


11 Q. And then the rest of them are 10:30 to


12 7 p.m., is that correct?


13 A. Yes.


14 Q. 10:30 to 7 p.m.


15 Were you on duty that day?


16 A. I don’t know.


17 Q. Do you remember there being a large group of


18 people?


19 A. I don’t remember being there when CBS was


20 there.


21 Q. All right. That’s fair enough.


22 All right. Now we go to page 123, which is


23 dated — by that I mean MJ00123, which is dated


24 2-9-03, correct?

25 A. Yes.


26 Q. And here we show on the 9th of February,


27 2003, that you have Gavin Arvizo, Star Arvizo,


28 Davellin Arvizo. It shows they were all — if you 7099


1 just look at those entries, they were all carried


2 over from the night before?


3 A. Correct.


4 Q. And then it shows that they left at about


5 1:30 —


6 A. Yes.


7 Q. — and apparently left with the person right


8 before there, whose name is, oh, Marie Nicole.


9 A. Yes.


10 Q. That says “Marie Nicole” right above “Gavin


11 Arvizo”?


12 A. Yes.


13 Q. So they all left at 1:30. Doesn’t tell you


14 where they went; is that correct?


15 A. That’s correct.


16 Q. And then they came back at 4:15 in the


17 afternoon?


18 A. Yes.


19 Q. It does appear that there are two other


20 people down at the bottom, Anna Ruiz and looks like


21 Silvana Ruiz. Do you see those?


22 A. Yes.


23 Q. Looks like they left at 1330, which is 1:30,


24 and came back at 4:15, right?


25 A. Correct.


26 Q. And it says “limo” there. Does that mean


27 they went by limo?


28 A. Yes. 7100


1 Q. And you don’t know how the Arvizos traveled


2 on that occasion, do you?


3 A. No.


4 Q. You would assume that somebody gave them a


5 ride, though?


6 A. Yes.


7 Q. Okay. And then it shows next they’re


8 carried over — that being the Arvizos — they’re


9 carried over. They stayed overnight; is that


10 correct?


11 A. Yes.


12 Q. And then we have page MJ00126, which shows


13 2-10-03, correct?


14 A. Correct.


15 Q. And here we see the Arvizos and Marie Nicole


16 staying overnight; is that correct?


17 A. That’s correct.


18 Q. And it shows there “Mrs. Arvizo,” as well,


19 under “Anna Ruiz,” correct?


20 A. Yes.


21 Q. And it appears that they stayed overnight.


22 Not only were they overnight the night before, but


23 they’re staying overnight the next night; is that


24 correct?


25 A. Yes.


26 Q. So that’s the 10th.


27 Now, did the — did the procedures change at


28 some point to where you would start logging in where 7101


1 people were staying at the ranch?


2 A. Yes.


3 Q. All right. I want to show you 2-11-03,


4 which is 00129, Bates stamp number 129. Okay,


5 2-11-03, correct?


6 A. Yes.


7 Q. And here on 2-11 — oops, sorry — it


8 appears that Dieter Weizner was staying in Guest


9 Unit No. 4.


10 A. Yes.


11 Q. And he stayed overnight?


12 A. Yes.


13 Q. If you go down to the next, it shows Janet


14 Arvizo.


15 A. Yes.


16 Q. All right. I’m sorry, when I said “the


17 next,” I meant to say skip one. It goes down to


18 Janet Arvizo, Guest Unit No. 2.


19 A. Yes.


20 Q. Stayed overnight, or she was staying


21 overnight, correct, from the night before?


22 A. Yes.


23 Q. But on this day, and again, “this day” being


24 February the 11th, then Arvizo leaves at 5:04 in the


25 afternoon, correct?


26 A. Correct.


27 Q. And she comes back at three minutes to 8:00?


28 A. Correct. 7102


1 Q. Okay. It shows, “Gavin and Star, house”?


2 A. Yes.


3 Q. That means they’re staying at the house,


4 according to this?


5 A. Yes.


6 Q. And then it shows — now, what does that say


7 now?


8 A. It looks like “Daniella.”


9 Q. Okay. Seems this name changes continuously.


10 But anyway, whoever that is, D. Arvizo, whatever it


11 says there, is staying in Unit No. 2; is that


12 correct?


13 A. Yes.


14 Q. And then Marie Nicole is staying in the doll


15 room, right?


16 A. Yes.


17 Q. That’s in the house?


18 A. Correct.


19 Q. And Aldo, her brother, is staying in the


20 house; is that correct?


21 A. Yes.


22 Q. Now, Ronald Konitzer is there in Unit No. 1,


23 correct —


24 A. Yes.


25 Q. — is that right?


26 And his wife and two children are also


27 staying there at the ranch in Unit No. 1; is that


28 correct? 7103


1 A. Yes.


2 Q. Now, Units 1, 2, 3 and 4 are the four guest


3 units that are right by the lake; is that correct?


4 A. That’s correct.


5 Q. And they’re just across the front —


6 A. Grass.


7 Q. Yeah, the front entrance.


8 A. The driveway.


9 Q. The driveway for the entry of the house.


10 They’re right across from the front of the house in


11 a building that has four units in it?


12 A. Yes.


13 Q. All right. So according to this, Ronald


14 Konitzer, his wife and children, are staying in 1.


15 Davellin’s in 2 with Janet. And there are these


16 other two people. Dieter’s in 4. And this Mark


17 Lester, whoever that is, is in 3, right?


18 A. Right.


19 Q. Now, excuse me one second. I think it got


20 cut off here. Hold on.


21 Yeah, okay. On this — at the bottom here,


22 same page, we’re still on 129 for February 11th,


23 ‘03, at the very bottom, you have “Ranch Vehicles,”


24 right?


25 A. Yes.


26 Q. And I’m going to direct your attention to


27 the one just before the bottom. It says “Katie,”


28 and it’s kind of cut off, but it’s Katie Bernard; is 7104


1 that correct?


2 A. Yes.


3 Q. Do you know who Katie Bernard is?


4 A. Yes.


5 Q. Who is she?


6 A. She’s a secretary for the ranch.


7 Q. Works at the ranch?


8 A. Yes.


9 Q. Is she a nice person?


10 A. Very nice.


11 Q. It says, “Black van,” right?


12 A. Yes.


13 Q. And what is the black van?


14 A. Black van. It would be the — it’s a ranch


15 vehicle that usually Gary drives.


16 Q. Okay. So it’s a vehicle that’s used to


17 drive people places, if the guests want to go to


18 town or do something else, or go to the airport or


19 whatever, it can be used for that, correct?


20 A. Yes.


21 Q. All right. Now, it looks like Katie Bernard


22 checks the black van out and then she leaves at four


23 minutes — at 5:04; is that correct?


24 A. Correct.


25 Q. So it appears that she is taking Janet


26 Arvizo off the ranch, correct?


27 A. They at least left at the same time.


28 Q. If it’s down to the minute, they’re either 7105

1 right in the same car or one right behind the other.


2 A. Yes.


3 Q. But usually it’s the same car, right?


4 A. Yes.


5 Q. It would be 1705 by the time you get to the


6 next car, probably, right?


7 A. Yes.


8 Q. Now, it looks like Katie Bernard was gone


9 long enough to, say, go to town, drop somebody off


10 and come back, right?


11 A. Yes.


12 Q. All right. Now we go to 2-12. And this is


13 page 132, 00132, and it shows February the 12th,


14 2003; is that correct?


15 A. That’s correct.


16 Q. All right. Now, here, let’s start with the


17 guests. And I take it — I think it’s obvious to


18 everybody, the Xerox machine evidently cut off the


19 edge of the page there, correct?


20 A. Yes.


21 Q. Here it appears that there are a number of


22 guests overnight, including Gavin, Star, and


23 Davellin, however her name is spelled, all right?


24 A. Yes.


25 Q. We’ll call her Davellin, all right?


26 A. Okay.


27 Q. It appears that they stayed overnight,


28 correct? 7106


1 A. Yes.


2 Q. And then it appears — and Janet as well,


3 correct? It says Janet, Gavin, Star, Davellin?


4 A. Yes.


5 Q. They all stayed overnight, and then they all


6 left at 1:38 in the morning; is that right?


7 A. That’s right.


8 Q. So when they went to the gate, whoever was


9 driving them stopped the vehicle and said, “We’re


10 leaving. And we have Janet, Gavin, Star and


11 Davellin here,” correct?


12 A. Yes.


13 Q. So the person at the gate, the guard at the


14 gate, could check all these people out at that date?


15 A. Yes.


16 Q. There was no secret spiriting of people


17 away. This was checking right out at the gate?


18 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; argumentative.


19 MR. SANGER: That probably was. I’ll


20 withdraw it.


21 THE COURT: All right. I’ll sustain the


22 objection.


23 MR. SANGER: There we go.


24 Q. In other words, this is done according to


25 procedure. A car comes up; the driver identifies


26 the people in the car?


27 A. Either the driver or the security officer.


28 Q. Or the security officer looks in and sees 7107


1 who it is, and he opens the gate and they go, right?


2 A. Correct.


3 Q. All right. If you look at the bottom here,


4 we also have something that says, “Salas,” and it


5 just says, “u-s Salas,” but your bet would be that’s


6 “Jesus Salas,” correct?


7 A. Yes.


8 Q. Just got cut off by the Xerox machine.


9 And he checks out the Rolls Royce, right?


10 A. Correct.


11 Q. Do you know what kind of Rolls Royce that


12 is?


13 A. I don’t know which one exactly that is.


14 There was a couple. They were older.


15 Q. Nice car?


16 A. Nice, yes.


17 Q. Nice car, all right. And he checked it out


18 according to the ranch procedures, correct?


19 A. Correct.


20 Q. And he checks out — it goes out at 1:38,


21 correct?


22 A. Yes.


23 Q. He does whatever he does, and he gets back,


24 in the Rolls Royce, by 9:08 in the morning, correct?


25 A. Yes.


26 Q. Now, Gary Hearn was there. He’s a driver,


27 correct?


28 A. Yes. 7108


1 Q. And he was staying overnight; is that right?


2 A. Yes.


3 Q. Okay. I think I’m going to go to 135. Hold


4 on one second. Excuse me, Your Honor. I’m sorry.


5 Let me skip ahead a little bit.


6 Okay. I’m going to go to 149. Show the


7 bottom first. 149.


8 Now, it says 2-17 through 2-26-03. Is that


9 a typical way to do this?


10 A. It has — I’ve seen it done. I think it


11 says 2-20, but —


12 Q. 2-20, you’re right, I’m sorry. 2-17 through


13 2-20?


14 A. The reason we would do something like this


15 would be if we knew we were going to have guests for


16 a certain period of time.


17 Q. So you have here — and let me do this,


18 first of all, so we can see it, and then I’ll focus


19 in a little better for you.


20 At the top where it says — ordinarily you’d


21 put your service people and whatnot up there, that’s


22 crossed out and it just says, “Guest List” and the


23 whole page is used for “Guest List”?


24 A. Yes.


25 Q. Down through the first two parts of it, in


26 any event; is that right?


27 A. Yes.


28 Q. And on the guest list — let me see if we 7109


1 can get closer and read it.


2 Can you find the one that I did?


3 MS. YU: Yeah.


4 MR. SANGER: Let me borrow that.


5 Q. 2-17 through 2-20, it shows — well, it


6 looks like Davidia Arvizo was staying overnight, had


7 been staying overnight; is that correct?


8 A. Stayed overnight at least once.


9 Q. All right. And then it shows “out” at 1951;


10 is that correct?


11 A. Yes.


12 Q. Do you know what day she left at 1951, 7:51


13 in the evening?


14 A. No.


15 Q. All right. And then you have Gavin is also


16 staying overnight and leaves at 1951, correct?


17 A. Yes.


18 Q. And you have Janet, who leaves at 2145?


19 A. Yes.


20 Q. And then, again, Star is 1951?


21 A. Yes.


22 Q. And here it shows that the Arvizos are


23 staying — it says —


24 A. I would assume it’s “Dance Studio.”


25 Q. Staying at the dance studio?


26 A. Yes.


27 Q. All right. And it shows the Cascios, Aldo


28 and Marie Nicole, are staying at the main house; is 7110


1 that correct?


2 A. Yes.


3 Q. And then there’s a number of other people


4 there who are staying in the guest units down there.


5 We don’t have to go through all of the names, but I


6 see Ann Konitzer and kids is in one.


7 A. Yes.


8 Q. With Ronald Konitzer?


9 A. Yes.


10 Q. And there are other people staying in the


11 other units, right?


12 A. Yes.


13 Q. Okay. Now, if we go to MJ00151, it says


14 2-18. And it doesn’t show all those guests that you


15 showed — I’m sorry, it does not show all the guests


16 that were shown on page 149 that we just looked at;


17 is that right?


18 A. Correct.


19 Q. So since the other one said 2-17 through


20 2-20, you would assume that some or all of those


21 people were continuing to stay overnight; is that


22 correct?


23 A. Yes. We most likely had that one that you


24 just showed without the guests, we had that for


25 every day —


26 Q. Okay.


27 A. — up through that period, because we would


28 still need to have written down somewhere where 7111


1 those people, or general deliveries, contractors or


2 whatever, were still coming in.


3 Q. If we go to 155, which is for 2-19, it


4 doesn’t show all those other guests that were


5 listed, correct?

6 A. Correct.


7 Q. But it does show some new guests, for


8 instance, fan club people there?


9 A. Yes.


10 Q. Who apparently came onto the ranch for a


11 while; is that correct?


12 A. For the day, it looks like.


13 Q. Okay. Now, I’m going to go to 2-20-03,


14 which is 157. And again, if you want to look at any


15 of the pages in between, you’re welcome to do it.


16 I’m trying to pick out the ones that count here, but


17 you can look at anything you want.


18 So this is 2-20-03, and this shows guests as


19 of 2-20. It shows Aja Pryor coming in at 1420


20 hours.


21 A. Yes.


22 Q. Along with Dustin Tucker. Is that her son?


23 A. I don’t know.


24 Q. Okay. Aja Pryor is Chris Tucker’s


25 girlfriend? Or you don’t —


26 A. I have no idea.


27 Q. Okay. Do you know who Aja Pryor is at all?


28 A. No. 7112


1 Q. In any event, whoever they are came in at


2 1420. At the same time, Gavin, Star and Davellin


3 came in at 1420 hours; is that correct?


4 A. Yes.


5 Q. So evidently they left sometime before the


6 time that they returned on 2-20, right?


7 A. Yes.


8 Q. And I showed you that other page where it


9 said 2-17 to 2-20; is that correct?


10 A. Yes.


11 Q. And it showed some “out” times, but it


12 didn’t tell you the day?


13 A. Right.


14 Q. So if somebody were to have left, say, on


15 the 19th, the time was there, but you wouldn’t have


16 the day to determine whether it was the 19th, the


17 17th, or what?


18 A. If that’s how that particular paper was


19 kept, yes. I don’t know exactly what was going on,


20 why — I’m sure we had the extra sheet because we


21 had so many people.


22 Q. All right.


23 THE COURT: One thing you need to do is to


24 keep referring to the page number.


25 MR. SANGER: Did I fail to do that on the


26 last one?


27 THE COURT: I don’t — I don’t think you did.


28 Maybe I missed it, but – 7113


1 MR. SANGER: Okay. I’m sorry. The one that


2 I just put up was 00157.




4 MR. SANGER: And that is for 2-20-03.


5 THE COURT: You did refer to it. I just


6 missed it. I’m sorry.


7 Is this a good place to stop?


8 MR. SANGER: Fine, Your Honor.


9 THE COURT: All right. We’ll reconvene


10 tomorrow morning at 8:30. Remember the admonition.


11 (The proceedings adjourned at 11:30 a.m.)

To be continued: 

6 Comments leave one →
  1. stacy2 permalink
    September 21, 2013 5:01 pm

    Quick question…Is it true that MJ was under FBI surveillence during the trial where all his phones and computers were tapped?

    • sanemjfan permalink
      September 21, 2013 5:50 pm

      No, MJ wasn’t under surveillance, and his phones and computers were not tapped. The FBI assisted Sneddon in their investigation by analyzing 18 computers that were confiscated at Neverland to see if they contained child porn (and of course they did not!), and they gave the prosecution assistance before the trial by training them on the habits and tendencies of pedophiles (to see if MJ “fit the description”), and they interviewed Jordan Chandler in September 2004 (along with Ass. DA Ron Zonen) when he threatened legal action against Sneddon if he were to be subpoenaed to testify against MJ.

      Here’s an interview with former FBI agent Jim Clemente, who assisted the prosecution and discusses why he has “doubts” about MJ’s innocence:

  2. Kris permalink
    September 10, 2013 8:19 pm

    David, what happened to Vindicating Michael? Why has it been suspended? Are you in touch with Helena? The cancellation of that blog would be a calamity to MJ friends.

    • sanemjfan permalink
      September 10, 2013 8:24 pm

      I don’t know! I emailed Helena about it, and I’ve also contacted WordPress. Right now, I speculate that some rabid MJ haters reported her to WordPress for “violating” their terms of service, and they temporarily suspended the blog for now. That’s what I’m hoping for!! We’ll see, and I’ll let everyone know as soon as I find out!

  3. September 10, 2013 7:49 pm

    Thanks, David. So it looks like Ed Bradley was there Feb 7 and that’s when MJ cancelled the interview b/c he got a call from Marlon Brando that Jordan’s deposition had leaked and would be in all the tabs. Also Ed saw the Arvizos at NL that day and they were in the main house talking about how wonderful MJ is. Whatb a mess.

    btw, why did Jesus Salas quit his job at NL?

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