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May 6th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Joy Robson, Chantal Robson, Marie Lisbeth Barnes, and Karlee Barnes, Part 1 of 2

January 4, 2015

 

Wade Robson’s mother and sister, Joy and Chantal Robson, respectively, testified for Jackson’s defense, and vehemently denied having any suspicions about Jackson’s behavior with Wade, or any other child.  A summary and analysis of their testimonies can be found in this post, and this post.

 

The next defense witness called to the stand was Marie Lisbeth Barnes, the mother of Brett Barnes. Here are her recollections of how and when her family met Jackson, and the nights her children spent in Jackson’s bedroom during their first visit to Neverland. In fact, Lisbeth was invited by Jackson to stay in his bedroom suite, and initially stayed there, but went back to her guest room after a while. Jackson’s invitation to Lisbeth to sleep in his bedroom suite with her children was antithetical to the prosecution’s assertion that he always tried to separate parents from their children:

 

26 DIRECT EXAMINATION

27 BY MR. MESEREAU:

28 Q. Good morning, Miss Barnes. 9343

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. Where is your home?

3 A. In Melbourne, Australia.

4 Q. And you have a son, right?

5 A. Yes, I do. And a daughter.

6 Q. And what is your son’s name?

7 A. Brett.

8 Q. And your daughter’s name?

9 A. Karlee.

10 Q. Okay. Do you know the person seated at

11 counsel table to my right?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. And who is he?

14 A. Michael Jackson.

15 Q. When did you first meet him?

16 A. 19 — December 1991.

17 Q. And how did you meet him?

18 A. Well, actually, when I met him personally

19 was in December of 1991, but I had spoken to him for

20 several years prior to that. I — he invited us to

21 his home in December 1991, and that’s when I met him

22 for the first time.

23 Q. Okay. Now, you said you’d been speaking to

 

24 him for a while before that?

 

25 A. Since 1987.

 

26 Q. And why were you speaking to him?

 

27 A. Because he had called — my son had written

 

28 a letter to him when he was very young, when Michael 9344

 

1 was touring Australia. And he received the letter

 

2 and he — well, he pulled out a letter out of the

 

3 bag, that’s what he told me, and it was Brett’s, and

 

4 he decided that he’d call him to thank him for the

 

5 letter. And he spoke to all of us, and we developed

 

6 a friendship, and he continued calling us and

 

7 speaking to us.

 

8 And then one day he decided to invite us

 

9 over to his home, and since then we’ve been regular

 

10 visitors.

11 Q. Do you still consider Mr. Jackson to be your

12 friend?

13 A. Oh, definitely.

14 Q. Where are you staying at the moment?

15 A. I’m staying at his — at Neverland Valley,

16 at his place.

17 Q. How many times do you think you have stayed

18 over at Neverland?

19 A. Several times. I can’t count.

20 Q. Can you give an estimate?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Would it be ten times?

23 A. Could be. Yeah.

24 Q. Could it be 20?

25 A. No, maybe not 20. Probably about ten, I

26 guess, or a little bit more, a little bit less. I’m

27 not sure. I’m — I know it’s several times. I can

28 take time and count back, but I haven’t thought 9345

1 about it.

2 Q. Okay. And your first visit to Neverland was

3 when, what year, if you know?

4 A. December 1991.

5 Q. Okay. And who did you visit Neverland with?

6 A. Our family. My husband, my two children.

7 Q. Okay. And how long did you stay there?

8 A. About three weeks. Well, we stayed with

9 Michael for that three weeks. He took us to

10 Disneyland, to Las Vegas, and, yes, we were together

11 for three weeks.

12 Q. Okay. And where did you stay during those

13 three weeks?

14 A. Sometimes at Neverland Valley. Sometimes at

15 Disneyland, and Las Vegas, depending on the places

16 we were visiting. And sometimes at the hotel in Los

17 Angeles.

18 Q. Okay. Now, let me direct you to the first

19 time — first night you were at Neverland, okay?

20 A. Uh-huh.

21 Q. What did you do?

22 A. We — he took us on a tour of the place, and

23 we — pretty much that. And then we watched a film

24 at the theater, had dinner, sat down and talked, and

25 pretty much that.

26 Q. Where did you stay that evening?

 

27 A. In one of the guesthouse — guest units at

 

28 the ranch. 9346

 

1 Q. And do you know where your children stayed

 

2 that evening?

 

3 A. Same — well, one of the other units at

 

4 the — they’re just a group of units, and they were

 

5 in the next one.

 

6 Q. To your knowledge, has your son ever stayed

 

7 in Michael Jackson’s room at Neverland?

 

8 A. Yes, he has.

 

9 Q. And when was the first time that happened?

 

10 A. I couldn’t tell you. I couldn’t remember.

 

11 I can’t remember. I’m sorry.

 

12 Q. To your knowledge, has your daughter ever

 

13 been in Michael Jackson’s room?

 

14 A. Yes, she has also.

 

15 Q. And to your knowledge, has she ever stayed

 

16 in his room?

 

17 A. Yes, she has.

 

18 Q. And how about you, have you ever been in his

 

19 room?

 

20 A. Yes, I have. And I have been invited to

 

21 stay over because we were watching videos and

 

22 talking, and he just suggested, “Well, why don’t you

 

23 stay; stay here,” because it was raining outside.

 

24 And he said, “Well, you can stay here.” And I

 

25 stayed for a little while, but then I went back to

 

26 my room. It was just more comfortable.

 

27 Q. How many times do you think you’ve been in

 

28 Michael Jackson’s room at Neverland? 9347

 

1 A. Oh, several times.

 

2 Q. Has it been all times of day?

 

3 A. Yes. I had pretty much free rein — just

 

4 anytime I wanted to, I was allowed to.

 

5 Q. Now, let me ask you about that. You’ve been

 

6 in Michael Jackson’s room during the day, right?

 

7 A. Uh-huh.

 

8 Q. You’ve been there during the evening, right?

 

9 A. Yes.

 

10 Q. Have you been there late into the night?

 

11 A. Well, yes. Pretty much when we were

 

12 watching videos, it would be — go pretty well late

 

13 into the night.

 

14 Q. How often do you think you’ve watched videos

 

15 late into the night in Michael Jackson’s room?

 

16 A. Several times.

17 Q. Okay.

 

18 A. Or times we were just talking, or —

 

19 Q. When you visited Neverland with your

 

20 children, did you feel that you had free access to

 

21 Michael Jackson’s room?

 

22 A. Yes.

 

23 Q. And why did you feel that way?

 

24 A. Well, he gave me free access. He — he — I

 

25 remember a particular occasion when I wanted to

 

26 borrow some CDs, and he said, “Just come into my

 

27 room and” — that is where they are kept and he

 

28 showed me where the selection of CDs were kept, and 9348


 

1 he said, “Anytime you want to come and borrow the

 

2 CDs, feel free to do so.”

 

3 Q. And how would you describe Mr. Jackson’s

 

4 room?

 

5 A. Just a huge room and — with lots of things

 

6 in it. Very, very warm and — but nothing

 

7 ostentatious. I don’t know what sort of description

 

8 you’re looking for.

 

9 Q. Is it two levels? Do you recall an upstairs

 

10 and a downstairs in the room?

 

11 A. Uh-huh.

 

12 Q. Have you been into both parts of his room?

 

13 A. Uh-huh. Yes.

 

14 Q. Do you recall having to knock on a door to

 

15 get into his room?

 

16 A. Well, I do that normally when I go into —

 

17 doesn’t matter whose place I go, it’s just common

 

18 courtesy to knock before you enter.

 

19 But I could have just — the door was never

 

20 locked, so I could go in anytime I wanted to.

 

21 Q. Were you ever denied access to his room?

 

22 A. Never.

23 Q. Did you ever go into the room when your

24 children were in the room with him?

 

25 A. Yeah.

 

26 Q. Have you done that often?

 

27 A. Yeah.

 

28 Q. Now, what have you seen your children doing 9349

 

1 with Mr. Jackson in Mr. Jackson’s room?

 

2 A. Just talking, watching films, and listening

 

3 to — just reading stories or just having fun. Just

 

4 chilling out, you know. Playing with games, toys,

 

5 whatever.

 

6 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Jackson do anything

 

7 inappropriate with either of your children?

 

8 A. No. Never.

 

9 Q. Ever seen Mr. Jackson inappropriately touch

 

10 your son?

 

11 A. Never.

 

12 Q. Ever seen Mr. Jackson inappropriately touch

 

13 your daughter?

 

14 A. Never.

15 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Jackson hug your son?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Have you ever been suspicious of the fact

18 that Mr. Jackson hugged your son?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Jackson hug your

21 daughter?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Have you ever been suspicious of Mr. Jackson

24 hugging your daughter?

25 A. No.

26 Q. Have you ever seen Mr. Jackson kiss your son

27 on the cheek?

28 A. Yes. 9350

1 Q. Has that ever made you suspicious of Mr.

2 Jackson?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Ever seen Mr. Jackson kiss your daughter on

5 her cheek?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Have you ever been suspicious of that

8 behavior?

9 A. No.

In this excerpt, Lisbeth gave a very blunt answer to Mesereau’s question of why she allowed her daughter to sleep in Jackson’s bedroom; she answered “Why not?”, which is indicative of how comfortable she felt around Jackson. Lisbeth continued to deny ever being suspicious of Jackson, and Mesereau quickly ended his direct examination:

10 Q. Okay. Now, you gave your son permission to

 

11 stay in Mr. Jackson’s room, correct?

 

12 A. Yes, correct.

 

13 Q. Did you give your daughter permission to

 

14 stay in his room?

 

15 A. Correct.

 

16 Q. Why?

 

17 A. Why not?

18 Q. Did you trust Mr. Jackson?

19 A. Implicitly. I always trusted him and I

20 still trust him.

21 Q. Why?

22 A. Because he’s just a very nice person. And

23 you just feel when you can trust someone and when

24 you can’t trust someone. And I had total trust in

25 him.

26 Q. And your son traveled with him at some

27 point, correct?

28 A. Uh-huh. Correct. 9351

1 Q. When was that?

2 A. It would have been January 1992, I think.

3 Q. Did you allow your son —

4 A. January, February.

5 Q. Did you allow your son to travel with Mr.

6 Jackson?

7 A. I allowed him, yes.

8 Q. Why was that?

9 A. Because, to me, it was a learning

10 experience, and — visiting other countries, and I

11 couldn’t — you know, I was — it didn’t bother me

12 at all.

13 Q. Did you ever suspect that Mr. Jackson had

14 inappropriately touched your son?

15 A. Never.

16 Q. Have you discussed with your son allegations

17 that Mr. Jackson inappropriately touched him?

18 A. Well, there were allegations, and we had

19 talked about it, and I have asked him. I said,

20 “Look me in the eyes and tell me that nothing has

21 happened to you, that Michael has never done

22 anything inappropriate to you.”

23 And he said he —

24 MR. ZONEN: I’m going to object to the

25 response as hearsay, Your Honor.

26 THE COURT: Sustained.

27 MR. ZONEN: Move to strike the answer.

28 THE COURT: Stricken. 9352

1 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: As you sit here today,

2 do you think Mr. Jackson has ever inappropriately

3 touched your son?

4 MR. ZONEN: I believe that’s character

5 opinion. I’ll object, unless this witness is a

6 character witness.

7 THE COURT: Sustained.

8 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions.

Zonen tried to discredit Lisbeth by making her appear to be an unfit mother by having her specify how old Brett was when he started sleeping in Jackson’s bed at both Neverland and at numerous hotels:

10 CROSS-EXAMINATION

11 BY MR. ZONEN:

12 Q. Miss Barnes, good morning.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. Your child Brett was how old when he first

15 met Michael Jackson?

16 A. Nine.

17 Q. And was that on the occasion of your first

18 visit?

19 A. Going on ten. Yes.

20 Q. He was nine years old?

21 A. He may have been ten.

22 Q. And your daughter was how old?

23 A. 12.

24 Q. And your daughter’s name is what?

25 A. Karlee.

26 Q. Karlee? Am I doing that right? Karlee?

27 A. Uh-huh. K-a-r-l-e-e.

28 Q. And both of them stayed with Michael Jackson 9353

1 that first night that you were at Neverland?

2 A. Well, we all stayed together and they —

3 like I said, they slept in the — in one of the

4 guest units, and we slept in the other guest unit.

5 Q. They slept in one of the guest units. Who

6 are “they”?

7 A. My children. Brett and Karlee.

8 Q. All right. They both stayed in one of the

9 guest units?

10 A. That’s correct.

11 Q. And you stayed in a separate guest unit?

12 A. That’s correct.

13 Q. And Mr. Jackson stayed in his residence?

14 A. That’s correct.

15 Q. All right. And the guest unit, of course,

16 is an entirely different structure than his

17 residence; is that right?

18 A. Uh-huh.

19 Q. You would have to walk outside and some

20 distance before you would get to his house?

21 A. That’s correct.

22 Q. Did you continue to stay in the guest unit

23 while you were there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And for what period of time did you stay at

26 Neverland before you finally returned to Australia?

27 A. Well, we were — we were at Neverland on —

28 on and off for over a three-week period, but we 9354

1 didn’t stay at Neverland the whole time.

2 Q. How long did you stay at Neverland?

3 A. Well, it was a few days in Neverland and a

4 few days outside of Neverland, coming back, so

5 altogether — I couldn’t tell you exactly how many

6 days altogether.

7 Q. Was your husband there as well?

8 A. Yes, he was.

9 Q. And other members of your family?

10 A. Well, my son and my daughter, and that’s the

11 complete family.

12 Q. Okay. You didn’t have any aunts or

13 grandparents or cousins or anything like that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So it was the four of you; is that correct?

16 A. That’s correct.

17 Q. And you wandered between Neverland and other

18 locations in California; is that right?

19 A. And Las Vegas.

20 Q. And Las Vegas.

21 Did you travel with Mr. Jackson during that

22 time?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So he took you to different locations; is

25 that right?

26 A. That’s correct.

27 Q. At what stage did your son begin to stay in

 

28 his room or with him in a hotel room, together? 9355

 

1 A. I don’t remember.

 

2 Q. Well, the first time you’re telling us —

 

3 A. It’s not the first few nights. It could

 

4 be — I’m not really sure exactly when.

 

5 Q. By about the third night?

 

6 A. Could be. It could be a little bit later.

 

7 Q. Fourth night?

 

8 A. I don’t remember.

 

9 Q. This is a trip that went about three weeks;

 

10 is that right?

 

11 A. That’s correct.

 

12 Q. The trip was paid for entirely by Mr.

 

13 Jackson?

 

14 A. That’s correct.

15 Q. And that included all of the transportation

 

16 for you, your husband and your two children from

 

17 Australia to California and back; is that right?

 

18 A. That’s correct.

 

19 Q. As well as all of your housing

 

20 accommodations, travel needs and entertainment; is

 

21 that right?

 

22 A. That’s correct.

 

23 Q. Did he purchase gifts for the four of you

 

24 while he was there?

 

25 A. Yes, he did.

 

26 Q. And by the fourth night, your son was

 

27 sleeping in his room; is that correct?

 

28 A. No, I didn’t say by the fourth night he was 9356

 

1 sleeping in his room.

 

2 Q. What night was it, then?

 

3 A. I’m not sure what night it was.

 

4 Q. Was it within the first week?

 

5 A. It could have been. It may have been. It

 

6 may not have been. I don’t remember.

 

7 Q. But he was sleeping with your son in the

 

8 same bed before this trip was over; is that correct?

 

9 A. That’s correct.

 

10 Q. All right. Was he sleeping in the same bed

 

11 with your son for an extended period of time?

 

12 A. On — no, not — not continuously, no. Just

 

13 on-and-off basis when they were — the times when my

 

14 son would fall asleep when we were there, and he

 

15 stayed there and — rather than having to go back

 

16 to — outside into the unit.

17 MR. ZONEN: Your Honor?

18 THE COURT: Thank you. We’ll take our break.

19 (Recess taken.)

20 THE COURT: You may proceed.

21 MR. ZONEN: Thank you, Your Honor.

22 Q. Miss Barnes, we were on a — the initial

23 visit, your initial visit to California to

24 Neverland, and I believe you were telling us —

25 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Your microphone’s off.

26 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: We were discussing your

27 initial visit to California and to Neverland, and I

28 believe that you said it was when your son was about 9357

1 nine years old. How much older was your daughter?

2 A. I said ten, actually. Nearly ten.

3 Q. I’m sorry, ten years old he was?

4 A. Well, he was going to be ten in January, so

5 it was December, so he was nearly —

6 Q. Close to his tenth birthday?

7 A. Uh-huh.

8 Q. And your daughter was how old at the time?

9 A. 12.

10 Q. And you took trips with the defendant to a

11 number of different locations, including Las Vegas?

12 A. That’s correct.

13 Q. What other cities did you go to besides Las

14 Vegas?

15 A. Well, Los Angeles. We went to Disneyland.

16 This is Anaheim, I believe —

17 Q. Okay. Where else?

18 A. — on that trip.

19 That’s about it, I think.

Zonen continued to badger Lisbeth about her son’s whereabouts during their various trips with Jackson, but she stood her ground and reiterated that it was Brett’s idea to sleep in Jackson’s room because he was having fun. Lisbeth testified about the first night that Brett slept in Jackson’s bedroom; he was ALREADY asleep in Jackson’s bed by the time she left the room! Also, Lisbeth stated that Jackson said it was OK for Brett to sleep in his bedroom only if he wanted to, which runs counter to the prosecution’s assertion that Jackson forced children to sleep in his bed.

20 Q. All right. Would it be fair to say that

21 most of the time that you were there, you were at

22 Neverland; is that correct?

23 A. Not quite. Not really, no, because we spent

24 a few days in Las Vegas. We spent a few days at

25 Disneyland. And when we were in Disneyland, I know

26 we went to Century City, so I’d say — I wouldn’t

27 say most of the time, no.

28 Q. Well, a few days in Century City? 9358

1 A. A hotel there. There’s a hotel in Century

2 City.

3 Q. Was that across the street from his

4 condominium?

5 A. That’s correct.

6 Q. When you were at the hotel in Century City,

7 was your son staying with Mr. Jackson in his

8 condominium?

9 A. No, he stayed with us.

10 Q. He stayed with you for the entire time?

11 A. I believe so.

12 Q. When you were at the Las Vegas hotel, did

13 your son stay with Mr. Jackson?

14 A. We were all together.

15 Q. In Mr. Jackson’s room?

16 A. Well, we shared a villa, so there were

17 several rooms in the villa. It’s like a —

18 Q. And in which room did your son sleep?

19 A. With my daughter.

20 Q. Your son slept with your daughter?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So he didn’t stay with Mr. Jackson at any

23 time while you were in Las Vegas?

24 A. I don’t recall. I don’t remember.

25 Q. He didn’t stay with Mr. Jackson at any time

26 when you were in Century City?

27 A. He may have. I’m not sure. No, I’m not —

28 I cannot tell you, because I don’t remember. 9359

1 Q. Did you stay at a hotel when you were at

2 Disneyland?

3 A. We were at The Disneyland Hotel.

4 Q. For how long? More than one night?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Two nights?

7 A. Probably four, five nights, I would say.

8 Q. Four or five nights?

9 A. Uh-huh.

10 Q. At Disneyland Hotel?

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. And did your son stay with Mr. Jackson

13 while —

14 A. We were all, again, in the same —

15 Q. Suite?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did your son stay in Mr. Jackson’s room in

18 that suite while you were at The Disneyland Hotel?

19 A. I don’t remember. Possibly. I don’t

20 remember.

21 Q. You’re not certain?

22 A. No.

23 Q. All right. Now, the first time that your

 

24 son ended up staying in Mr. Jackson’s room, had you

 

25 had a conversation with Mr. Jackson prior to that

 

26 event? Did Mr. Jackson talk with you about your son

 

27 staying with him in his room?

 

28 A. No. It was my son’s decision to stay the 9360

 

1 night.

 

2 Q. It was your son’s decision to stay?

 

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. Well, explain how that happened.

 

5 A. He wanted —

 

6 Q. Your son came to you and asked you if he

 

7 could stay with Mr. Jackson?

 

8 A. No, we just happened to be in the room, and

 

9 he said he wanted to stay. He wanted to stay there

 

10 for the night, because they were having fun, and

 

11 he — he just said he was going to stay there and —

 

12 Q. Was this is at Neverland we’re talking

 

13 about?

 

14 A. That’s correct.

 

15 Q. It’s not at one of the hotels?

 

16 A. No.

17 Q. It’s before you began your series of trips

18 around different places; is that correct?

19 A. That’s correct. Uh-huh.

20 Q. So it was in the early part of your stay in

21 California?

22 A. Yes, I would say so.

23 Q. And your son came to you — and your son

 

24 came to you and said that he would like to spend the

 

25 night —

 

26 A. He didn’t come to me. Well, I was there

 

27 with him.

28 Q. And your daughter was there as well? 9361

1 A. Uh-huh.

 

2 Q. You were all on the bed together?

 

3 A. Well, we were in the room together.

 

4 Q. Which room is that? The downstairs room?

 

5 A. That’s correct.

 

6 Q. And there is a bed in the downstairs room?

 

7 A. That’s correct.

 

8 Q. And there’s a bed in the upstairs room?

 

9 A. That’s correct.

 

10 Q. Were you watching T.V.?

 

11 A. We were at the time. I don’t remember what

 

12 we were doing. I’m sorry.

13 Q. Was your husband there as well?

14 A. I don’t remember.

15 Q. Was your daughter there as well?

16 A. I presume so.

17 Q. Do you know at what hour it was that your

18 son —

19 A. No, I don’t remember.

20 Q. — that your son expressed the desire to

21 remain in Mr. Jackson’s room?

22 A. I don’t remember.

23 Q. Was it late at night?

24 A. I don’t remember. I’m sorry.

25 Q. Was it potentially very early in the

26 morning?

27 A. I don’t — I don’t remember. I’m sorry. I

28 just don’t remember. It was just a long time ago. 9362

1 Q. Did you understand him to mean that he was

2 going to be sleeping in Mr. Jackson’s bed?

3 A. I would imagine so, because eventually he

4 would have fallen asleep.

5 Q. Is that where he was at the time that you

6 left the room?

7 A. What do you mean?

8 Q. At the time that your son said he wanted to

9 stay there, was Mr. Jackson there?

10 A. Yes, he was.

11 Q. Was Mr. Jackson on the bed?

12 A. No. He was just in the room, sitting on one

13 of the chairs, walking around. He likes walking

14 around.

15 Q. He walks around?

16 A. Uh-huh.

17 Q. So he was walking around, and your son was

18 on the bed?

19 A. I’m not really sure whether he was on the

20 bed or whether he was playing with something on the

21 floor, or —

22 Q. Do you remember the conversation where he

23 asked you — your son asked you to remain in Mr.

24 Jackson’s room? Do you remember that conversation?

25 A. No, I don’t.

26 Q. But you do remember — but you do remember

27 that it was your son who asked if he could stay

28 there? 9363

1 A. It was his decision, yes.

2 Q. Was Mr. Jackson party to that conversation?

3 A. No. Well, he was there. But he wasn’t

4 party to — he wasn’t actually taking part in the

5 conversation, if that’s what you mean.

6 Q. Did you say to your son, “No, that’s not

 

7 appropriate. Come back to the guest cottage with

 

8 your family”?

 

9 A. No, I didn’t.

10 Q. You said it was all right for him to stay in

11 that room?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did Mr. Jackson say to you, “It’s okay with

 

14 me, he can stay here”? Did he say that to you?

 

15 A. Well, I don’t remember what he said at the

 

16 time. I just asked him if it was okay. And —

 

17 Q. Who asked who if it was okay?

 

18 A. I asked Mr. Jackson if it was okay, and he

 

19 said, “Yes. If he wants to stay, that’s fine.”

20 Q. So you did have a conversation with Mr.

21 Jackson about your son remaining?

22 A. Well, I can’t say that it’s a conversation.

23 If I just asked him something, it’s not really a

24 conversation as far as I’m concerned, I’m sorry.

25 Q. Now, your son at the time was almost ten

26 years old?

27 A. That’s correct.

28 Q. And Mr. Jackson at the time was in his 9364

1 mid-30s?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Had your son slept with any other man in his

 

4 mid-30s up to that point other than a relative?

 

5 A. Well, he slept with my brother at my

 

6 parents’ place.

7 Q. Do you understand your brother to be a

8 relative?

9 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. The prosecutor is

10 not letting her complete her answer.

11 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.

12 You may answer the last question. Do you

13 want it read back?

14 THE WITNESS: I’m sorry, I didn’t quite

15 hear.

16 THE COURT: I’ll have the court reporter read

17 it to you.

18 (Record read.)

19 THE WITNESS: Yes.

20 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: All right. Do you understand

21 that the question I asked was other than relatives?

22 Had your son, at that point in his life, slept with

23 any other men other than relatives; adult, grown

24 men?

25 A. No.

26 Q. All right. Since that date, has he slept

27 with any adult, grown men during the balance of his

28 adolescence other than a relative? 9365

1 A. Not that I know.

Next, Zonen shifted from Neverland to the Jackson’s trips with the family, and he asked Lisbeth to identify a series of photographs of Brett and Jackson:

2 Q. All right. Now, Miss Barnes, at the time

3 that he first spent the night in Mr. Jackson’s room,

4 in Mr. Jackson’s bed, you had known Mr. Jackson

5 what, a couple days?

6 A. Well, I had met him a couple of days, but I

7 had known him — I had been friends with him — I

8 consider myself being friends with him, because we

9 had communicated over the phone for several years

10 prior to that.

11 Q. You’d had telephone conversations —

12 A. Uh-huh.

13 Q. — with him.

14 The first time that you actually spent any

15 time in his home with him was the occasion of this

16 first visit just prior to your son’s —

17 A. That’s correct.

18 Q. — tenth birthday.

19 All right. Did your son continue to sleep

 

20 with him thereafter?

 

21 A. Not every day.

 

22 Q. But many days?

 

23 A. On occasions.

24 Q. And your son visited Mr. Jackson on a

25 regular basis over the years for the balance of his

26 adolescence, did he not?

27 A. And we did as a — we did as — my daughter,

28 myself and my son. We did. 9366

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. And my husband was present on occasions, but

3 he had to work on other occasions.

4 Q. Yes. And other occasions your son came by

5 himself?

6 A. And other occasions, yes, he did come by

7 himself.

8 Q. Some occasions he went with you?

9 A. That’s correct.

10 Q. On some occasions he traveled with Mr.

11 Jackson extensively, did he not?

12 A. I would say so.

13 Q. He traveled rather extensively with Mr.

14 Jackson throughout the United States, didn’t he?

15 A. I believe so.

16 Q. Do you know how many cities he traveled with

17 your son, he traveled to with your son?

18 A. I couldn’t tell you how many cities, no.

19 Q. Were you present when he traveled through

20 the United States with your son?

21 A. To some places I was present, yes.

22 Q. Which places were you present?

23 A. Chicago, Las Vegas. I’m not really sure.

24 There were several occasions where I was present.

25 Q. Several occasions beyond Chicago and Las

26 Vegas?

27 A. Well, not several cities, but several

28 occasions where – 9367

1 Q. Were you with your son on all of the

2 occasions when he traveled with Mr. Jackson

3 throughout the United States?

4 A. Not all. Not all the occasions, no.

5 Q. Were there occasions when you stayed back in

6 Australia?

7 A. Yes, there were occasions when I stayed

8 back.

9 Q. And your husband stayed back in Australia as

10 well?

11 A. That’s correct.

12 Q. For what periods of time would your son be

13 in California or traveling in the United States with

14 Mr. Jackson without you being there?

15 A. I don’t recall.

16 Q. And you have no idea what cities they went

17 to?

18 A. Well, I have an idea of some of the cities

19 they went to.

20 Q. All right. You just said Las Vegas and

21 Chicago. Do you remember any of the others?

22 A. I know that he’s been to New York with Mr.

23 Jackson.

24 Q. He went to New York. Okay. Where else?

25 A. Chicago.

26 Q. And Chicago?

27 A. I don’t really recall any other cities in

28 the United States. 9368

1 MR. ZONEN: May I approach the witness?

2 THE COURT: You may.

3 MR. MESEREAU: May I see?

4 MR. ZONEN: Same ones we did yesterday.

5 MR. MESEREAU: Oh, okay.

6 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: I’d like to show you a series

7 of photographs, if I may, and please tell me if you

8 recognize these photographs. Number 889 I’ll begin

9 with; two photographs in the front, two photographs

10 in the back.

11 Go ahead and look at the back side as well.

12 A. Uh-huh.

13 Q. Who’s the subject of those photographs?

14 A. My son.

15 Q. Brett?

16 A. That’s correct.

17 Q. And approximately how old was he when those

18 pictures were taken?

19 A. Like I said, probably about ten, I guess.

20 10, 11.

21 Q. Do you have a recollection of those pictures

22 being taken?

23 A. These ones, definitely, because he was just

24 playing games. And him and my daughter were playing

25 games in the photo box, and they were just pulling

26 faces.

27 Q. This is a photo box at Neverland?

28 A. That’s correct. 9369

1 Q. All right. And the two photographs you’re

2 talking about are the two on the back side of 889;

3 is that correct?

4 A. That’s correct.

5 Q. How about the two photographs on the front

6 side of 889, do you recognize those?

7 A. No, I don’t recognize anyone’s face in

8 those.

9 Q. Do you recognize the setting?

10 A. I believe I do, yes.

11 Q. And where is that?

12 A. Or do I? No, I’m not really sure actually.

13 Q. That’s fine. Take a look at Exhibit 890,

14 two photographs in the front. Do you recognize the

15 two photographs?

16 A. No, I don’t.

17 Q. Do you recognize the people in either of the

18 two photographs?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. Who are they?

21 A. The top photo is Mr. Jackson, and — I

22 believe so. And — I need my glasses for that one.

23 And the bottom one is my son.

24 Q. All right. Number 891, do you recognize the

25 subject matter of those two photographs?

26 A. I believe they’re Mr. Jackson.

27 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the setting of

28 those photographs? Were you there when they were 9370

1 taken?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You don’t have a recollection of these

4 photographs being taken; is that correct?

5 A. No.

6 Q. The three photographs on the back of 891, do

7 you recognize those?

8 A. I believe them to be Mr. Jackson.

9 Q. Number 892, two photographs in the front.

10 A. Uh-huh.

11 Q. Who are they?

12 A. The top one of my son Brett, and the bottom

13 one of my son with Mr. Jackson.

14 Q. How old do you believe Brett is in those

15 photographs?

16 A. About 12, I would say. Probably 12, 13.

17 Probably 12, I’d say.

18 Q. He had long hair that he wore at the time?

19 A. Uh-huh.

20 Q. Did he wear long hair for a number of years

21 like that?

22 A. He did. And then he had — he had a haircut

23 in 1993, and then he grew it again.

24 Q. On the back side of Exhibit No. 892, who is

25 that?

26 A. Again, my son with Mr. Jackson.

27 Q. Number 893?

28 A. Same. 9371

1 Q. Again, your son and Mr. Jackson, both

2 photographs?

3 A. Uh-huh.

4 Q. And the photograph on the back, the top

5 one —

6 A. Uh-huh.

7 Q. — is your son?

8 A. That’s correct.

9 Q. Okay. And the bottom one as well?

10 A. The bottom one is my son.

11 Q. Number 894, four photographs?

12 A. Uh-huh. Mr. Jackson.

13 Q. And the two on the back?

14 A. Again, Mr. Jackson.

15 Q. And 895, we have two photographs in the

16 front and four on the back.

17 A. Uh-huh. My son.

18 Q. Okay. Now, 896, we have two photographs in

19 the front and two on the back. Take a look at these

20 and tell me if you recognize them.

21 A. No, I don’t believe I know the location.

22 Q. The two photographs on the back and the one

23 photograph on the front on the bottom are of

24 buildings and a skyline; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Okay. And you don’t remember that setting

27 at all? That’s not familiar to you?

28 A. No. 9372

1 Q. Okay. Did you travel to Chicago with your

2 son and Mr. Jackson?

3 A. I did on one occasion, with — when he was

4 filming the video for the song “Jam” with — with

5 Mr. Michael Jordan in that video. Yes, that was the

6 occasion I traveled with —

7 Q. Where did your son stay in Chicago during

8 that trip?

9 A. He stayed with — with me at times and —

10 Q. With Mr. Jackson?

11 A. — with Mr. Jackson at times, yes.

12 Q. Yeah. How long did that tour go on? Was he

13 actually on a tour?

14 A. No, that was just a few days that we went to

15 Chicago, and then we had to come back. We had to go

16 back again.

17 Q. Do you remember how old your son was at that

18 time?

19 A. About 11.

20 Q. Between the ages of ten and —

21 A. Ten.

22 Q. — and 13, how often did your son travel to

23 Neverland?

24 A. Several times.

25 Q. “Several times” meaning what?

26 A. I don’t remember.

27 Q. More than once a year?

28 A. I would say probably, yes. 9373

1 Q. More than twice a year?

2 A. Probably, on average, about two, three

3 times.

4 Q. Two or three times a year. On how many of

5 those occasions did you accompany him to Neverland

6 between the ages of 10 and 13?

7 A. Most of the time I did.

In this excerpt, Zonen tried to discredit Lisbeth’s husband by asking if he had ever expressed any concern over Brett sleeping in Jackson’s bedroom, and she testified that their discussion was not motivated by any suspicions of Jackson, but instead were motivated by the fact that they were possibly imposing themselves on Jackson!

8 Q. Now, your son traveled with him extensively

9 in South America, did he not?

10 A. No, we were present, my family. My husband,

11 my daughter and I were present when we toured South

12 America.

13 Q. All right. And how long of a tour was that?

14 A. I don’t quite remember. Couple months

15 maybe. I’m not sure. I don’t remember.

16 Q. Did you travel for the entirety of that

17 tour?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. So for a couple months you traveled

20 throughout South America?

21 A. Uh-huh.

22 Q. And your son was there as well the entire

23 time?

24 A. That’s correct. And my daughter and my

25 husband.

26 Q. Your daughter and your husband and you for

27 the entire time?

28 A. Yes. 9374

1 Q. That was a couple months?

2 A. I would say probably — it could be — could

3 have been three months. I don’t remember.

4 Q. Three months?

5 A. Could have been.

6 Q. Your husband was able to take three months

7 off from work?

8 A. Yes, because he had long service leaves.

9 Q. He had what?

10 A. Long — in Australia, after you work for,

11 say, ten years, you’re entitled to long service

12 leave, so you have three months every ten years.

13 And he had two lots of long-service leave that he

14 was able to take.

15 Q. And that trip was paid for entirely by Mr.

16 Jackson, was it not?

17 A. That’s correct.

 

18 Q. And is it true that during the entirety of

 

19 that trip your son slept in Mr. Jackson’s room with

 

20 Mr. Jackson?

 

21 A. I wouldn’t say during the entirety.

 

22 Q. Most of it?

 

23 A. I would say at times.

 

24 Q. At times?

 

25 A. Uh-huh.

 

26 Q. What does that mean? Once a week?

 

27 A. Well, I can’t give you an exact number of

 

28 times, because it happened quite a while. 9375

 

1 Q. Your son was how old at that point, the time

 

2 of the South America trip?

 

3 A. 12, I would say.

 

4 Q. I’m sorry?

 

5 A. 12. I —

 

6 Q. 12? 12 years old?

 

7 Did your husband ever express any concerns

 

8 to you about your son sleeping in the same bed with

 

9 Mr. Jackson?

 

10 A. No.

 

11 Q. Did you ever discuss it with him at all?

 

12 A. Yes. We talked — well, we didn’t see

 

13 any — any reason — we talked about it. It wasn’t

 

14 a discussion, as such, that — because I couldn’t

 

15 make a decision and say, “Well, yes, it’s okay,” and

 

16 not consult my husband, because he’s part of the

 

17 family. So….

 

18 Q. So at some point in time there was a

19 discussion that you had with your husband about your

 

20 son sleeping with Michael Jackson?

 

21 A. A conversation that we decided whether we

 

22 should — whether it was okay, because we didn’t

 

23 want to impose on Mr. Jackson.

 

24 Q. Was this the sole issue that you were

 

25 dealing with was whether or not your son sleeping

 

26 with him was an imposition for Mr. Jackson? That

 

27 was the sole concern you had?

 

28 A. Yes. 9376

1 Q. How many conversations did you have with

2 your husband about the question of where your son

3 slept?

4 A. I don’t remember.

5 Q. More than ten?

6 A. No. I don’t remember.

7 Q. Do you remember at what age your child was

8 at the time of that discussion?

9 A. No. I don’t remember.

10 Q. He could have been ten?

11 A. I don’t remember. I’m sorry.

12 Q. Could have been 13?

13 A. I don’t remember.

14 Q. Do you know if he had already been sleeping

15 with Mr. Jackson for a period of three or four years

16 by the time you had this conversation with your

17 husband?

18 A. I don’t think so.

19 Q. Well —

20 A. I think it would have been before, before

21 that.

22 Q. Perhaps a year?

23 A. No. It would have been at the beginning, I

24 guess.

25 Q. So your son was closer to age ten, or

26 perhaps age ten at the time this happened?

27 A. That’s correct. Yes.

28 Q. All right. And then your discussion with 9377

1 your husband took place where? Was it in Australia

2 or was it in the United States?

3 A. While we were here.

4 Q. So “here” being what? Neverland,

5 California?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So early on, then. Was it perhaps the first

8 visit that you had taken to Neverland?

9 A. I’m sorry?

10 Q. Was it perhaps the first visit that you had

11 taken to Neverland?

12 A. What’s the question?

13 Q. The question of when you had the

 

14 conversation with Mr. — with your husband about

 

15 your son sleeping with Michael Jackson.

 

16 A. I would say that would have been perhaps at

 

17 the — during the first visit, yes.

 

18 Q. During the first visit?

 

19 A. Uh-huh.

 

20 Q. And the only subject of that conversation

 

21 with your husband was whether or not it

 

22 inconvenienced Mr. Jackson to have your son in bed

 

23 with him; is that true?

 

24 A. I believe so.

Since Lisbeth completely annihilated the prosecution’s claims that Jackson persuaded Brett to sleep in his bed, Zonen tried Plan B: to emphasize Jackson’s habit of referring to his close friends as “family”. The prosecution argued that this was part of Jackson’s strategy to earn the trust of both the parents and the children:

25 Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever tell you that he

 

26 thought of you as family?

 

27 A. Yes.

 

28 Q. Did he do that often? 9378

 

1 A. I believe so, yes.

2 Q. Did he encourage you to think of him as

3 family?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did he, in fact, suggest that you

6 consider that he be family to you?

7 A. I believe so.

8 Q. Did he tell you that he was going to be in

9 the picture for a long time with you and your

10 family?

11 A. I believe so.

12 Q. That he would be a friend to you and your

13 family and assistance, and that he would have your

14 family as his family?

15 A. Well, that we would be his friends for a

16 long time, yes.

17 Q. Did you ever tell him that you loved him as

18 much as you loved any other member of your family,

19 including your children?

20 A. I believe that I would have said that I love

21 him very much.

22 Q. Did you ever tell him that you loved him as

23 much as any other member of your family, including

24 your children, as much as you love your children?

25 A. I don’t remember saying that.

Next, Zonen asked Lisbeth to identify a handwritten letter that she wrote to Jackson on September 1st, 1992, in which she apologized for getting Jackson sick with an illness (possibly the flu, although she couldn’t remember what it was). She was also asked to recollect about an angry outburst she had with Jackson’s head of security Bill Bray after she wasn’t able to attend a particular Jackson concert.

26 Q. Did you ever send Mr. Jackson any letters?

27 A. I probably have.

28 Q. Did Mr. Jackson ever ask you to leave 9379

 

1 Neverland?

 

2 A. Never.

 

3 Q. Did you believe that you had to leave

 

4 Neverland at some point?

 

5 A. No.

6 Q. Was Mr. Jackson going to send you to Paris?

7 A. No.

8 MR. ZONEN: May I approach the witness, Your

9 Honor?

10 THE COURT: Yes.

11 MR. ZONEN: Mr. Mesereau, here’s the

12 original of the letter I gave you.

13 Q. I’m going to show you Exhibit 897, 8-9-7, a

14 two-page letter. Go ahead and take a moment and

15 look at it.

16 You can hold on to it. I may ask you a

17 couple questions about it.

18 Did you read the letter in its entirety?

19 A. Uh-huh.

20 Q. Do you recognize that letter?

21 A. I believe so.

22 Q. Is that a letter that you wrote?

23 A. I believe so, yes.

24 Q. It’s in your handwriting?

25 A. Yes, it is.

26 Q. Do you have a recollection of having written

27 it?

28 A. Uh-huh. 9380

1 Q. Is it true that you said in that letter, “I

2 love my family deeply, and I love you as much as I

3 love them”?

4 A. I believe — well, I’ve read this. Yes, I

5 did say that.

6 Q. I’m sorry?

7 A. I did write that, yes.

8 Q. And was that a true statement when you wrote

 

9 it?

 

10 A. Yes. Well, I wanted to let Mr. Jackson know

 

11 that I loved him very much, and I — I believe that

 

12 I had hurt him at some stage because I was behaving

 

13 inappropriately. And that’s why I wanted to

 

14 apologize profusely, just to let him know that I was

 

15 regretful of what I had done.

 

16 Q. This was written September 9th, 1992; is

 

17 that correct?

 

18 A. That’s correct, yes.

 

19 Q. You wrote in the letter that, “Bill told you

 

20 yesterday we were responsible for your illness. I

 

21 felt like killing myself.”

 

22 A. Uh-huh.

 

23 Q. And that is something that you wrote; is

 

24 that correct?

 

25 A. That’s correct.

26 Q. All right. “Bill” is who? Bill Bray?

27 A. That’s correct.

28 Q. Who is Bill Bray? 9381

1 A. He was Mr. Jackson’s head of security.

2 Q. Okay. And in 1992, your son was how old?

3 A. Ten. Oh, 10 going on 11 at that stage. Ten

4 and a half.

5 Q. So you had known Mr. Jackson about a year at

6 that point?

7 A. That’s correct.

8 Q. What illness was it that you believed that

9 you were responsible for?

10 A. Well, from — from my recollection of this

11 particular incident, we were on tour and — with Mr.

12 Jackson on — in the European tour of the

13 “Dangerous” tour —

14 Q. Ma’am, what illness was it that you

15 believed —

16 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. He’s cutting off

17 the witness.

18 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object as nonresponsive,

19 the answer.

20 THE COURT: Sustained.

21 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: Tell us what illness it was

22 that Mr. Jackson had that you believed you were

23 responsible for.

24 A. I don’t recall what the illness was.

25 Q. But it was serious enough that you felt like

26 killing yourself?

27 A. Well, it was probably a bit overdramatic

28 what I had written there, but it was only because I 9382

1 felt so bad about it.

2 Q. But now you don’t even remember what illness

3 it was?

4 A. No, I don’t remember what the actual illness

5 was, but I remember that I had caused him some

6 grief.

7 Q. Did he have an illness that required medical

8 attention?

9 A. I’m not sure whether it actually required

10 medical attention, but I know that he felt that he

11 was feeling unwell at the time.

12 Q. Feeling unwell physically or emotionally?

13 A. I guess probably emotionally. I don’t know.

14 But all I know, that he was feeling unwell. I don’t

15 really know the extent of — I don’t remember

16 what — what — actually how he was feeling, what

17 the actual feeling was, whether it was physical or

18 whether it was emotional. I don’t have any

19 recollection of that.

20 Q. And was this because of an outburst of some

 

21 kind that you staged?

 

22 A. Pretty much. Well, it was a personal matter

 

23 between Mr. Jackson and myself.

 

24 Q. What did you say to him —

 

25 A. Um —

 

26 Q. — that caused you to feel like killing

 

27 yourself?

 

28 A. Well, this is — the reason why I felt so 9383

 

1 bad is because it was — I — what happened was that

 

2 during the tour, there was a particular city that we

 

3 were visiting. There wasn’t quite enough VIP passes

 

4 for everyone, because they had VIP passes for

 

5 numerous guests.

6 Q. What city were you in?

7 A. I don’t actually recall which city.

8 MR. MESEREAU: Objection. The prosecutor

9 interrupted.

10 THE COURT: Sustained.

11 MR. MESEREAU: May the witness be allowed to

12 complete her answer, Your Honor?

13 THE COURT: Yes.

14 MR. ZONEN: I’ll object to the narrative

15 form of the answer.

16 THE COURT: Well, you asked the question.

17 MR. ZONEN: I’ll withdraw my objection,

18 Judge. I’m sorry.

19 THE COURT: Go ahead. Do you want the part

20 that you’ve already said read back, so you can

21 complete your answer?

22 THE WITNESS: That’s — please.

23 THE COURT: All right.

24 (Record read.)

25 THE WITNESS: And I was informed that we —

26 I wasn’t able to go and see the show. And I was

27 upset over that, and that’s — I’m ashamed to be

28 telling this to everyone, but that’s pretty much 9384

1 what happened. And I didn’t realize that particular

2 outburst was going to make him feel bad.

3 And what happened was that he explained to

4 me that he had several things on his mind and that

5 he wanted to make us happy, and because I was

6 being — I was unhappy, that was causing him grief.

7 And so I felt pretty much disgusted with myself for

8 having —

9 Q. BY MR. ZONEN: What city were you in?

10 A. I don’t recall which city it was. It was a

11 city before — possibly before Paris, or — I’m not

12 really sure.

13 Q. What country were you in?

14 A. Again, I don’t remember.

15 Q. You were in Europe?

16 A. We were in Europe, yes.

17 Q. So you’ve done tours with Michael Jackson in

18 Europe, in South America, and in the United States?

19 A. Well, I didn’t actually tour with Mr.

20 Jackson in the United States.

21 Q. All right. On this particular occasion, the

22 occasion of writing this letter, you were someplace

23 in Europe; is that right?

24 A. That’s correct, yes.

25 Q. And you had some kind of an outburst that

26 upset him deeply?

27 A. Uh-huh.

28 Q. All right. 9385

1 A. And it was to do with the fact that —

2 Q. I’m sorry?

3 A. It was to do with the fact that I didn’t —

4 I wasn’t able to go to a particular show.

5 Q. And to whom did you complain about not being

6 able to go to this show?

7 A. I believe it was with — possibly with Mr.

8 Bray and with Mr. Jackson.

9 Q. So Mr. Jackson was there at the time?

10 A. Yes, he was.

11 Q. And you had an outburst, complaining about

 

12 not being able to go —

 

13 A. I call it an outburst, but it was the fact

 

14 that I showed my displeasure, and that — because I

 

15 was upset, in a way that upset him, because he

 

16 wanted us to be — to be happy and to enjoy the

 

17 tour, and it seemed like I wasn’t because I wasn’t

 

18 able to go to one of the shows. And it was very

 

19 petty and — on my behalf.

 

20 Q. Actually, you didn’t say “outburst,” you

 

21 said “outbursts,” plural. You had a few of them,

 

22 didn’t you?

 

23 A. No, I didn’t have a few outbursts. But

 

24 probably — it could have been because I — I had

 

25 expressed my displeasure with Mr. Bray and then with

 

26 Mr. Jackson. That could have been why it’s in

 

27 plural.

 

28 Q. Now, because you had an outburst over your 9386

 

1 displeasure at not going to a concert, you felt like

 

2 killing yourself, and you wrote that in a letter to

 

3 Mr. Jackson?

 

4 A. I did, but that — again, like I said, it’s

 

5 probably an overdramatic statement because of the

 

6 fact that I felt so bad. I wanted to let him know

 

7 how bad I felt, but I had no intention of killing

 

8 myself. But it’s just to — that was just an

 

9 expression to let him know that I was very, very

 

10 remorseful and how bad I felt about it because of

 

11 the fact that I had been selfish.

12 Q. Did your son actually go to that concert?

13 A. Yes, he did.

14 Q. Was —

15 A. No, no, sorry, he didn’t go to the concert,

16 but he was on the tour with us, yes.

17 Q. He did not go to that concert either?

18 A. I don’t believe so.

19 Q. Did you tell Mr. Jackson in this letter that

 

20 you were prepared to leave?

 

21 A. Yes, I did.

 

22 Q. Did you tell him, “The only thing that we

 

23 will not do, we will not leave without Brett, and

 

24 that could be a bit of a problem”?

 

25 A. That’s correct. Yes.

26 Q. All right. Did you anticipate at that point

27 that Brett would not want to go with you if you left?

28 A. Yes, because Brett was having such a great 9387

1 time and he would have been very disgruntled about

2 having to leave and probably would have been

3 throwing tantrums, I guess.

4 Q. You wrote, “If the Paris business bothers

5 you, we would be quite happy to go someplace else to

6 avoid any situation”; is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What’s “the Paris business”?

9 A. Well, that could have been that — that

10 occasion that — the concert, that particular

11 concert I’m talking about.

12 Q. So you think it might have been in Paris

13 that you had an outburst?

14 A. Yes. Whether the concert was in Paris or

15 not, I’m not sure. But it was in Paris that

16 actually —

17 Q. Was your son sleeping with Michael Jackson

18 during the course of that tour in Europe?

19 A. At some time, yes. At some stage.

20 Q. Well, how often would he spend nights with

21 Mr. Jackson as opposed to his family?

22 A. I don’t remember.

After a few final questions, Zonen ended his cross examination:

23 Q. Did you have a conversation with an

24 investigator for the defense last night?

25 A. Not last night, no.

26 Q. The night before?

27 A. Not the night before, no.

28 Q. From yesterday at 2:30, from yesterday at 9388

1 2:30 in the afternoon —

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. — did you discuss your testimony or anybody

4 else’s testimony with either Mr. Mesereau or any

5 other member of the defense team, lawyer or

6 investigator?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You had no discussion with anybody from 2:30

9 on yesterday, no one at all?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Nobody told you what questions you might be

12 asked today based on yesterday’s testimony?

13 A. No.

14 MR. ZONEN: Thank you. I have no further

15 questions.

Mesereau asked Lisbeth to reiterate her feelings about Jackson, and in addition Lisbeth testified that she also felt that Jackson was a part of her family; their feelings were mutual. Before ending his redirect examination, Mesereau interjected some levity into his questioning by asking Lisbeth if she and her family ever had to “escape” Neverland using a hot air balloon!

17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION

18 BY MR. MESEREAU:

19 Q. The prosecutor for the government asked you

20 questions about Mr. Jackson, saying that you’d been

21 friends for a long time. Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Have you been friends with Mr. Jackson for a

24 long time?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. For how long?

27 A. Since 1987, I would say.

28 Q. And you’re his friend today, correct? 9389

1 A. That’s correct.

2 Q. The prosecutor for the government asked you

3 questions about loving Michael Jackson. Do you

4 remember that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you love Michael Jackson?

 

7 A. I do, very much.

 

8 Q. Why?

 

9 A. Because he’s a caring, a generous,

 

10 considerate human being. He’s just a great person.

11 Q. Have you ever been embarrassed about loving

12 Michael Jackson?

13 A. No. I’m proud of it.

14 Q. The prosecutor asked you questions about Mr.

15 Jackson referring to you as family, correct?

16 A. That’s correct.

17 Q. And has he done that?

18 A. Yes, he has.

19 Q. Have you referred to Mr. Jackson as part of

20 your family?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you consider Mr. Jackson part of your

23 family?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Why?

26 A. Well, I guess it’s just the closeness that I

27 feel, that it’s a little bit more than just

28 friendship, so – 9390

1 Q. And he asked you questions about having to

 

2 leave Neverland or something like that. Do you

 

3 remember that?

 

4 A. Uh-huh.

 

5 Q. You’re staying there right now, aren’t you?

 

6 A. That’s correct.

 

7 Q. Ever been forced to leave Neverland?

 

8 A. Never.

 

9 Q. Never had to escape from Neverland?

 

10 A. Never.

11 MR. ZONEN: Objection; exceeding the scope

12 of cross-examination.

13 THE COURT: Overruled.

14 Q. BY MR. MESEREAU: Ever gotten in a hot air

 

15 balloon at Neverland?

16 MR. ZONEN: Objection; irrelevant.

17 THE COURT: Sustained.

18 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions.

Zonen questioned Lisbeth about her preparations for her testimony, and whose idea it was for her to testify in the first place. Lisbeth testified that it was her idea, thus squashing the notion that the defense was desperately soliciting people to testify on Jackson’s behalf. After this line of questioning, Zonen ended his recross examination, and Mesereau had no further questions as well:

20 RECROSS-EXAMINATION

21 BY MR. ZONEN:

22 Q. With whom did you speak prior to your

23 testimony today, at any time prior to today, about

24 your testimony?

25 A. Who do you mean? Anyone —

26 Q. At the time that you arrived in California,

27 did you talk to anybody about your testimony?

28 A. From the time I arrived in California, I had 9391

1 a meeting with Mr. Mesereau for about five to ten

2 minutes. And with Mr. Scott Ross.

3 Q. For how long?

4 A. For about probably —

5 Q. I’m sorry?

6 A. Between 15 to 20 minutes.

7 Q. You’ve had 25 minutes of meeting since

8 you’ve arrived in California for preparation for

9 your testimony today and that’s all?

10 A. Yes. I believe so.

11 Q. Now, when you were still in Australia, did

12 you have conversations with Mr. Ross over the

13 telephone?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you have conversations with Mr. Mesereau

16 over the telephone?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you have a conversation with anybody in

19 Australia before — anybody while you were in

20 Australia about your testimony, or about this case?

21 A. No. Well, within my family we did talk

22 about it, but — with my husband and my children,

23 but that’s about it.

24 Q. Did anybody from the defense team contact

25 you in Australia?

26 A. No.

27 Q. Well, how did you know you were coming to

 

28 California? 9392

 

1 A. I offered to come and help Mr. Jackson. I

 

2 offered to come testify.

3 Q. You offered to whom?

 

4 A. To Mr. Jackson.

 

5 Q. You called Mr. Jackson?

 

6 A. I called his office and told them that I was

 

7 willing to — to testify.

 

8 Q. With whom did you speak?

 

9 A. To Grace.

 

10 Q. You had a conversation with Grace?

 

11 A. Well, I rang her and I told her I was

 

12 willing to do so and she contacted me. She — to

 

13 let me know that, yes, it was — it was okay to do

 

14 so. And then they made the arrangements.

15 Q. And nobody talked to you at all about what

 

16 you would say?

 

17 A. No.

18 Q. So nobody had any idea what you would say

 

19 before you arrived here?

 

20 A. No.

21 Q. And then you had a total of 25 minutes of

22 conversation between two different people?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. And in Australia, did Mr. Oxman

25 call you, Brian Oxman?

26 A. No. He never called me.

27 Q. Did he call your son?

28 A. I believe he called him at some stage, yes. 9393

1 Q. All right. So Mr. Oxman had a conversation

2 with your son; is that right?

3 A. Yes, he did.

4 Q. And did he ask your son questions about what

5 you would be saying as well?

6 A. No. That was prior to me making that

7 decision.

8 Q. So your son had already made the decision to

9 come to Neverland when you then made a decision —

10 A. That’s correct.

11 Q. — at a subsequent time?

12 A. Uh-huh.

13 Q. And nobody had spoken with you about your

14 testimony prior to that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And then after you made the decision, you

17 called Mr. Jackson’s who? Nanny? Is that who that

18 was, Grace?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And his nanny was the only person you spoke

21 to about any substantive information about your

22 testimony; is that correct?

23 A. Well, she was the person I communicated

24 with, and she made the proper arrangements and it

25 was — all the arrangements was made through her.

26 Q. And nobody called you back to discuss your

27 testimony?

28 A. No. 9394

1 Q. Were you given an affidavit to sign or a

2 declaration to sign at some time before coming to

3 the United States?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you sign a declaration or affidavit

6 after arriving at the United States?

7 A. No.

8 MR. ZONEN: No further questions.

9 MR. MESEREAU: No further questions, Your

10 Honor.

11 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may

12 step down.

13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

14 THE COURT: Call your next witness.

15 MR. MESEREAU: The defense will call Ms.

16 Karlee Barnes.

17 BAILIFF CORTEZ: Mr. Sneddon? Do you still

18 want the letter here?

19 MR. SNEDDON: I’ll take it.

20 MR. SNEDDON: Photographs too?

21 BAILIFF CORTEZ: No.

22 THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand.

Summary of the testimony of Marie Lisbeth Barnes:

1. Marie Lisbeth Barnes, the mother of Brett Barnes, began her testimony with her recollections of how and when her family met Jackson, and the nights her children spent in Jackson’s bedroom during their first visit to Neverland. In fact, Lisbeth was invited by Jackson to stay in his bedroom suite, and initially stayed there, but went back to her guest room after a while. Jackson’s invitation to Lisbeth to sleep in his bedroom suite with her children was antithetical to the prosecution’s assertion that he always tried to separate parents from their children.

2. When asked by Mesereau why she allowed her daughter to sleep in Jackson’s bedroom; Lisbeth answered “Why not?”, which is indicative of how comfortable she felt around Jackson. Lisbeth continued to deny ever being suspicious of Jackson, and Mesereau quickly ended his direct examination.

3. Under cross examination, Zonen tried to discredit Lisbeth by making her appear to be an unfit mother by having her specify how old Brett was when he started sleeping in Jackson’s bed at both Neverland and at numerous hotels.

4. Zonen continued to badger Lisbeth about her son’s whereabouts during their various trips with Jackson, but she stood her ground and reiterated that it was Brett’s idea to sleep in Jackson’s room because he was having fun. Lisbeth testified about the first night that Brett slept in Jackson’s bedroom; he was ALREADY asleep in Jackson’s bed by the time she left the room! Also, Lisbeth stated that Jackson said it was OK for Brett to sleep in his bedroom only if he wanted to, which runs counter to the prosecution’s assertion that Jackson forced children to sleep in his bed.

5. Zonen tried to discredit Lisbeth’s husband by asking if he had ever expressed any concern over Brett sleeping in Jackson’s bedroom, and she testified that their discussion was not motivated by any suspicions of Jackson, but instead were motivated by the fact that they were possibly imposing themselves on Jackson!

6. Since Lisbeth completely annihilated the prosecution’s claims that Jackson persuaded Brett to sleep in his bed, Zonen tried Plan B: to emphasize Jackson’s habit of referring to his close friends as “family”. The prosecution argued that this was part of Jackson’s strategy to earn the trust of both the parents and the children.

7. Under redirect examination, Mesereau asked Lisbeth to reiterate her feelings about Jackson, and in addition Lisbeth testified that she also felt that Jackson was a part of her family; their feelings were mutual. Before ending his redirect examination, Mesereau interjected some levity into his questioning by asking Lisbeth if she and her family ever had to “escape” Neverland using a hot air balloon!

8. Under recross examination, Zonen questioned Lisbeth about her preparations for her testimony, and whose idea it was for her to testify in the first place. Lisbeth testified that it was her idea, thus squashing the notion that the defense was desperately soliciting people to testify on Jackson’s behalf. After this line of questioning, Zonen ended his recross examination, and Mesereau had no further questions as well.

To be continued: https://michaeljacksonvindication2.wordpress.com/2015/01/10/may-6th-2005-trial-analysis-joy-robson-chantal-robson-marie-lisbeth-barnes-and-karlee-barnes-part-2-of-2/

 

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