May 9th, 2005 Trial Analysis: Francin Contreras, Gayle Goforth, Violet Silva, Ramon Velasco, Joseph Marcus, Part 4 of 4

Silva was asked to further clarify the directive from ranch manager Joe Marcus to refer to the Cascio family as “Tyson”:

3 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION

4 BY MR. SANGER:

5 Q. Don’t book put the book away.

6 A. Okay.

7 Q. The book is open.

8 Let’s just be clear. I think this is clear,

9 but it is — February 28th, 2003, that is the actual

10 date when the directive came out to refer to the

11 entire Cascio family by the last — as “Tyson”?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That wasn’t English. Let me try that again.

14 It was February 28th, 2003, that the

15 directive came out that the entire Cascio family

16 should be referred to as “Tyson”; is that correct?

17 A. Yes. February 28th.

18 Q. And so as far as you’re concerned, when

19 people remembered it, that’s what they were supposed

20 to do; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And if somebody came through the gate and

23 was logged in as a “Cascio” instead of a “Tyson,”

24 would that necessarily mean that someone was

25 disobeying the directive?

26 A. No.

27 MR. SNEDDON: Object. Calls for a

28 conclusion; speculation. 9618

1 THE COURT: Sustained.

2 MR. SANGER: Okay.

3 Q. Was this a preference that was — let me

4 withdraw that.

5 Who informed you that that was supposed to

6 be the case, that as of February 28th, the Cascio

7 family should be referred to as “Tyson”?

8 A. The gate log shows that it was per Joe

9 Marcus.

10 Q. So you did not talk to Joe Marcus about

11 that; is that correct?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And you saw it in the gate log along with

14 other security staff; is that correct?

15 A. Right. Or I was briefed by a supervisor

16 about it.

17 Q. Okay. As far as you know, did the staff

18 make an effort to comply with that request?

19 MR. SNEDDON: Object. Speculation;

20 conclusion.

21 THE COURT: Sustained.

22 Q. BY MR. SANGER: As the head of security, was

23 it brought to your attention that anybody was

24 deliberately disobeying that instruction?

25 A. No.

26 Q. And do you know — beyond it coming from Joe

27 Marcus, do you have any information as to who made

28 the request? 9619

1 A. No.

2 Q. All right. You indicated —

3 Your Honor, this may reopen slightly, but

4 let me ask this question and see how far we get.

5 As you were going through the gate logs just

6 now, did you come across the entry where the golf

7 carts were taken away from both Shane Brando and

8 Gavin Arvizo?

9 A. I must — I don’t recall the date, but I’m

10 sure it’s in here.

11 Q. Did you see it as you were flipping through

12 this time?

13 A. No, I don’t believe I saw it in there.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. I didn’t grab the page and see it, but —

16 Q. You weren’t looking for it. All right. I

17 won’t ask you to go back through it. It’s either in

18 there or it isn’t.

Finally, Sanger ended his redirect examination on a high note by having Silva confirm that her reasons for not wanting her children to stay at Neverland were personal, and not based on any concerns for their safety; in fact, her children attended Family Day at Neverland on several occasions! This was very powerful testimony for the defense, as it allayed the juror’s suspicions that Silva was worried about her children being molested or plied with alcohol at Neverland:

19 Let me ask you, you indicated that you would

20 have a concern as a mother about having your child

21 stay at the ranch; is that right?

22 A. Not concern for them saying there, but

23 perhaps some of the activity was beyond my comfort

24 level.

25 Q. Okay. Now, you’ve — without going into

26 details about your private life, but you have

27 children, right?

28 A. Yes, I have two daughters. 9620

1 Q. Okay. You have grandchildren?

2 A. Yes, twins.

3 Q. Would — did you ever bring your family

4 members to Family Day?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So your daughters as well?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So they’ve been there and they’ve played at

9 the ranch and had fun on Family Day, correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Your concern was from your own personal

12 standpoint as a mother, that you would not want to

13 bring your children there on a regular basis; is

14 that right?

15 A. On a regular basis, no.

16 MR. SANGER: All right. That’s fine. Okay.

17 I have no further questions.

18 MR. SNEDDON: Nothing further.

19 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down.

20 Call your next witness.

21 MR. SANGER: The next witness will be Ramon

22 Velasco.

23 And Mr. Velasco is going to be assisted by

24 the Spanish language interpreter, the court

25 interpreter.

26 THE COURT: When you get to the witness

27 stand, please raise your right hand and face the

28 clerk. 9621

The next defense witness was Ramon Velasco, who worked at Neverland from 1989 through 1999 as a gardener and dishwasher. Sanger tried to question Velasco about his observations of Blanca Francia, but most of the prosecution’s objections about this line of questioning were sustained, and Sanger had to move on to other topics:

14 DIRECT EXAMINATION

15 BY MR. SANGER:

16 Q. Okay. Mr. Velasco, you asked to be assisted

17 by a Spanish language interpreter in court; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, correct.

20 Q. Thank you. And we respect that choice.

21 You do speak English to a certain extent, is

22 that correct, sir?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Spanish is your first language?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. And you feel more comfortable speaking in

27 Spanish than in English; is that correct?

28 A. Yes. 9622

1 Q. Now, let me ask you if you know the

2 gentleman seated right here.

3 A. Yes, I do know him.

4 Q. Who is that?

5 A. Mr. Michael Jackson.

6 Q. Okay. And have you worked for Mr. Jackson

7 at Neverland Ranch?

8 A. Yes, I did work.

9 Q. And when did you go to work at Neverland

10 Ranch?

11 A. I started in the year 1989. And I stopped

12 around 1999.

13 Q. Did you work continuously during that period

14 of time?

15 A. Not the whole time.

16 Q. Did you take any breaks from working there?

17 A. Well, I injured my back, and I was operated

18 on.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. And I was given the opportunity to return

21 again.

22 Q. All right. So you were off for a period of

23 time with a back injury?

24 A. Yes, correct.

25 Q. When was that?

26 A. 1991.

27 Q. How long were you off?

28 A. About eight months. 9623

1 Q. All right. So other than that eight-month

2 period, you’ve been a regular employee at the ranch?

3 A. Yes, of course.

4 Q. And what was your first job assignment when

5 you went to work at the ranch?

6 A. Taking care that the game would not eat the

7 flowers.

8 Q. Okay. Did you win or did the game win?

9 A. The deer; the deer won.

10 Q. Okay. So you worked as a gardener for a

11 period of time?

12 A. Yes, of course.

13 Q. About how long was that?

14 A. I cannot recall exactly.

15 Q. Was it a matter of months or years?

16 A. Several years.

17 Q. All right. And then after doing — or

18 working in — working as a gardener, did you take on

19 another job?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what was that?

22 A. Assisting the cook to — by washing dishes.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. And other things.

25 Q. Okay. And how long did you do that?

26 A. Several years.

27 Q. And you left employment at the ranch in

28 1999, correct? 9624

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was your job at the time you left

3 employment?

4 A. I worked full time in the kitchen.

5 Q. All right. And you assisted the cook?

6 A. No, at that time I was the one in charge.

7 Q. Oh, you were the cook. I’m sorry.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. Now, when you were — when you were

10 working as the cook — first of all, you were

11 working as the assistant to the cook and then as

12 the cook. Did you work in the kitchen in the main

13 house?

14 A. Yes, the whole house.

15 Q. And when did you first start working in the

16 house?

17 A. I cannot recall exactly.

18 Q. Was it after your — after you came back

19 from your back injury?

20 A. Yes, correct.

21 Q. Okay. Do you recall how long after your

22 back injury?

23 A. Could you please repeat that question?

24 Q. That’s fine.

25 Do you recall how long it was after you

26 returned to work from your back injury that you came

27 to work in the house?

28 A. Right after my operation, it was almost 9625

1 immediately after. It was part time. Oh, partly

2 outside, partly inside.

3 Q. So you started working partly inside in

4 1991, then?

5 A. Both places.

6 Q. And then when did you start working full

7 time inside?

8 A. Really, I cannot recall. I wasn’t in one

9 place or the other.

10 Q. All right. Now, at the time you left, you

11 were working full time inside; is that right?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Okay. Now, do you have a nephew?

14 A. Yes, of course.

15 Q. And is your nephew also — did your nephew

16 also work at the ranch?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Is that Carlos?

19 A. Yes, correct.

20 Q. Full name is Carlos Velasco?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. First of all, let me ask you about Jason

23 Francia. Do you remember Jason Francia?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Did your nephew spend time with Jason

26 Francia?

27 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; foundation.

28 THE COURT: Sustained. 9626

1 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Okay. Did you see your

2 nephew spend time with Jason Francia?

3 A. No, I do not recall that.

4 Q. Okay. Do you know if your nephew went to

5 school in the early ‘90s?

6 A. I do know that he did at that time, but I

7 don’t know the exact year.

8 Q. And your nephew Carlos went to school in

9 Santa Maria?

10 A. Yes, of course.

11 Q. Do you know if he went to the same school as

12 Jason Francia?

13 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; foundation.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 MR. SANGER: All right.

16 Q. Now, did you know Blanca Francia?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. And who is Blanca Francia?

19 A. What is it, the response that you’re

20 seeking? If I know her as a friend or —

21 Q. Okay. I forgot what I asked, the exact

22 words. But in any event, did Blanca Francia work at

23 the ranch?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. All right. And what was her job when you

26 first met her?

27 A. She would clean Michael’s room.

28 Q. All right. When you first met her, did you – 9627

1 did you get along with her?

2 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; relevancy.

3 MR. SANGER: Foundation.

4 THE COURT: All right. Overruled.

5 THE WITNESS: What was the question?

6 Q. BY MR. SANGER: When you first met with her,

7 did you get along with her?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Okay. At some point, did you have occasion

10 to change your opinion of Blanca Francia?

11 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; relevancy.

12 MR. SANGER: Let me just withdraw it, then.

13 I’ll make it easier, okay? If I may.

14 THE COURT: All right.

15 Q. BY MR. SANGER: At some point did you notice

16 that Blanca Francia’s behavior with other employees

17 was impolite?

18 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Leading and

19 relevancy.

20 THE COURT: Sustained.

21 MR. SANGER: On?

22 THE COURT: Both.

23 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Did you — well, did you see

24 Blanca Francia have encounters with other employees

25 at the ranch?

26 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Ambiguous and

27 relevancy.

28 THE COURT: Overruled. 9628

1 You may answer.

2 THE WITNESS: Would you please repeat the

3 question?

4 MR. SANGER: Could I ask, please?

5 THE COURT: Yes.

6 Could it be read back?

7 (Record read.)

8 THE WITNESS: I did not see it. I heard it.

9 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Did you hear her talk to

10 other employees?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How did she conduct herself with other

13 employees?

14 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection. Relevancy;

15 hearsay; calls for a conclusion.

16 THE COURT: Sustained.

17 MR. SANGER: Dare I ask? All three?

18 THE COURT: Well, yeah. I’m not sure where

19 you’re going, so the foundation and conclusion is a

20 valid objection. But maybe if I understood where

21 you were going. Do you want to approach on this?

22 MR. SANGER: Could we, please?

23 (Discussion held off the record at sidebar.)

24 Q. BY MR. SANGER: All right. Now, while you

25 were working at the ranch, do you know how long

26 Blanca Francia was also there at the ranch?

27 A. She was there before me. But I don’t know

28 how many years. 9629

1 Q. And she left — she left long before you

2 did, right?

3 A. Yes, correct.

4 Q. Okay. During the time you were working at

5 the ranch, do you know if there was a wine cellar?

6 A. Yes, there was.

7 Q. Was the wine cellar kept locked?

8 A. Yes, the whole time.

9 Q. Were children allowed in the wine cellar

10 unaccompanied by Mr. Jackson or an adult or

11 somebody; somebody in a position of authority?

12 A. Not that I was aware of.

13 Q. Where was the key to the wine cellar kept

14 during the time you were there?

15 A. It was behind the door.

16 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’m going to object as to

17 relevancy, given his — the time that he left the

18 ranch.

19 THE COURT: Sustained.

Velasco denied ever seeing Jackson act inappropriately with any child:

20 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Did you observe the Robson

21 family at the ranch?

22 A. I did not personally see them. I was not

23 really interested in who the people were. I was

24 there to help them.

25 Q. Okay. You — all right. You saw a number

26 of families visit the ranch; is that right?

27 A. Yes, of course.

28 Q. And did you see Mr. Jackson engage in play 9630

1 with family members who visited the ranch?

2 A. Yes, of course.

3 Q. Did you see water balloon fights, for

4 instance?

5 A. Yes. Several times.

6 Q. And during the time from — well, let me

7 withdraw that.

8 During the entire time that you were

9 there — let me withdraw that.

10 Did you ever see Mr. Jackson do anything

11 inappropriate with any child?

12 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; leading.

13 THE COURT: Overruled.

14 THE WITNESS: Never. No, never.

15 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Foundation.

16 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Did you see whether or not

17 Mr. Jackson — let me withdraw that.

18 During the time you were working in the

19 kitchen in particular, as an assistant and then as a

20 chef, did Mr. Jackson have high standards for the

21 food that you prepared?

22 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; relevancy.

23 THE COURT: Sustained.

24 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Well, how did he want his

25 guests to be treated, as far as you were concerned?

26 A. The best.

27 Q. Did Mr. Jackson himself complain about, for

28 instance, food that he was served personally? 9631

1 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; relevancy.

2 THE COURT: Sustained.

3 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Did Mr. Jackson ever

4 complain to you that the food that was being served

5 to the children was not — to the children or the

6 adult guests was not adequate?

7 A. Yes, sometimes.

8 Q. Did you feel that he was complaining

9 unreasonably?

10 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; relevance.

11 THE COURT: Overruled.

12 THE WITNESS: They were reasonable.

13 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Okay. And now if I may ask

14 that other question. Did Mr. Jackson ever complain

15 about the food that was served to himself?

16 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; relevance.

17 THE COURT: Overruled.

18 THE WITNESS: No, never.

Sanger had a few more general questions, and quickly ended his lackluster direct examination of this witness. In my opinion, Velasco was a rather weak witness for the defense, primarily because he wasn’t allowed to elaborate in great detail about his observations of the change in behavior of Blanca Francia, who he was subpoenaed to testify against:

19 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Now, yesterday at almost

20 8:00 at night, were you contacted by someone who

21 indicated that they were a member of the sheriff’s

22 department?

23 A. Yes. There were two persons.

24 Q. Was this by telephone or in person?

25 A. By telephone.

26 Q. What were you doing when you were called?

27 A. I was working in my home.

28 Q. Where were you working in your home? 9632

1 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; relevancy.

2 THE COURT: Sustained.

3 MR. SANGER: Okay. All right. I have no

4 questions.

5 THE COURT: We’ll take our break.

6 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Okay.

7 (Recess taken.)

8 THE COURT: Counsel?

9 MR. SANGER: I have no further questions.

10 THE COURT: All right.

Auchincloss successfully discredited Velasco (in my humble opinion) by having him confirm that he wasn’t aware of what Jackson did with his young friends behind closed doors in his bedroom suite; this was done in order to counter his earlier testimony that he had never seen Jackson abuse any children:

12 CROSS-EXAMINATION

13 BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Velasco.

15 A. Good afternoon.

16 Q. You mentioned that you saw nothing

17 inappropriate between Mr. Jackson and young boys; is

18 that correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Are you aware that he had unrelated young

21 boys sleep with him alone in his room?

22 MR. SANGER: Objection. Beyond the scope;

23 calls for speculation, without foundation.

24 THE COURT: Sustained.

25 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Do you think it is

26 appropriate for young boys to sleep in a man’s bed

27 when they are unrelated to him and he is an adult?

28 MR. SANGER: Objection — sorry. Objection. 9633

1 THE COURT: Sustained.

2 Q. BY MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Mr. Velasco, did you

3 ever see — well, let me back up. Were you

4 permitted to go into Mr. Jackson’s room when the

5 door was closed?

6 A. I don’t recall.

7 Q. Were you permitted to go into Mr. Jackson’s

8 room anytime you wished?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So can I safely say that you were not aware

11 of what Mr. Jackson did in his room when the door

12 was closed and he was in there with somebody?

13 A. Yes, of course.

14 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: All right. Thank you. No

15 further questions.

16 MR. SANGER: No further questions.

17 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You may

18 step down.

19 Call your next witness.

20 MR. SANGER: Yes, sir. The defense will

21 call Joe Marcus.

22 THE COURT: Please remain standing, face the

23 clerk and raise your right hand.

The next defense witness was Joseph Marcus, the property manager at Neverland, and second in command behind Jackson. Marcus worked for the previous owner of the ranch, William Bone, who also employed Marcus’ father as well.

9 DIRECT EXAMINATION

10 BY MR. SANGER:

11 Q. Mr. Marcus, how are you?

12 A. Very well, thank you.

13 Q. All right. What is your current employment?

14 A. Currently employed at Neverland Valley Ranch

15 as the property manager.

16 Q. And when you say “property manager,” what

17 are your duties?

18 A. My duties range from — maintaining the

19 property. There are multiple supervisors that I

20 supervise on a daily basis, from the zoo, to the

21 amusement park, to the maintenance of the property,

22 to the irrigation, just the actual properties.

23 Q. All right. And when you say “property

24 manager,” are you sometimes referred to as the ranch

25 manager?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. So you are the — at the top of the

28 organizational chart as far as the ranch is 9635

1 concerned; is that correct?

2 A. Right under the top, yes.

3 Q. Right under. At the very top would be Mr.

4 Jackson, I take it?

5 A. That’s correct.

6 Q. And you know Mr. Jackson?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. How long have you known Mr. Jackson?

9 A. About 18 years.

10 Q. Okay. Now, the ranch that’s called

11 Neverland Ranch, was it always called Neverland

12 Ranch?

13 A. No. I believe it was called Sycamore Valley

14 Ranch before.

15 Q. And who owned the ranch before Mr. Jackson

16 did?

17 A. A gentleman by the name of Bone. William

18 Bone.

19 Q. Mr. Bone.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you work for Mr. Bone at Sycamore Valley

22 Ranch before Mr. Jackson owned the property?

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Did your father work for Sycamore Valley

25 Ranch before Mr. Jackson owned the property?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. What was your father’s job?

28 A. I believe he was the property manager at 9636

1 that time.

2 Q. So the bailiff is getting up to tell you —

3 A. Talk — oh. I apologize.

4 Q. Don’t apologize. Every single witness has

5 had that problem and the lawyers do from time to

6 time. We have to get very close to the microphone

7 to be heard.

8 Okay. So your father was the ranch manager

9 at Sycamore Valley Ranch, is that correct, or for

10 Mr. Bone?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you worked at the ranch for a period of

13 time yourself, Sycamore Valley Ranch, correct?

14 A. Very briefly, yes.

15 Q. What did you do while you were there?

16 A. I worked in maintenance department.

17 Q. All right. And after Mr. Jackson bought the

18 ranch, did you continue on as an employee?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what were your job assignments, or your

21 job position when Mr. Jackson took over the ranch?

22 A. I actually transferred to security.

23 Q. Okay. Now, did Mr. Bone have a security

24 department?

25 A. No.

26 Q. He was not a celebrity?

27 A. No.

28 Q. What did Mr. Bone do? 9637

1 A. I believe he was in land development.

2 Q. Okay. Real estate and —

3 A. Real estate, yes.

4 Q. — that sort of thing?

5 All right. Now, did the main building —

6 the main buildings, which would be the residence

7 itself, the portion attached to it that now has the

8 garage and Mr. Jackson’s office in it, the

9 guesthouse with the four guest units and the arcade

10 building, were those buildings all there when it was

11 Sycamore Valley Ranch?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The lake, was the lake there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And there were irrigated pastures around the

16 main house?

17 A. There were.

18 Q. Since Mr. Jackson purchased the property,

19 have there been improvements to the property?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us what improvements?

22 A. The number one main improvement would be the

23 trains. There are two trains. There’s a steam

24 train as well as a 24-gauge train. There’s also an

25 amusement park, a zoo, a theater, the train depot.

26 There’s a teepee area that is also a water fort

27 area.

28 Q. All right. Was the theater in existence? 9638

1 A. No, Mr. Jackson built that.

2 Q. All right. So that was another addition?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And at the time that — let me withdraw

5 that. Let me ask you about the trains, because

6 we’ve heard testimony about the trains.

7 You said there are two different trains.

8 Let’s take the smaller one. Can you describe that

9 train?

10 A. It’s a small — I believe it’s on 24-gauge

11 tracks. It’s three cars that hold approximately

12 40 to 50 people, and that’s really the description.

13 Q. All right. Have you ever been to the zoo in

14 the City of Santa Barbara?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Have you seen the train there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is it similar to the one —

19 A. It is.

20 Q. All right. So adults can sit in it, but

21 it’s a fairly small train?

22 A. Exactly.

23 Q. And when the engineer sits behind the

24 engine, the engineer is — sits above the engine?

25 A. Exactly.

26 Q. All right. That train — the tracks for

27 that train go from where to where? Can you tell us?

28 A. From the golden gate – 9639

1 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’m going to object.

2 Relevancy.

3 THE COURT: Overruled.

4 THE WITNESS: From the golden gate to the zoo

5 area, throughout the property. It stops in front of

6 the theater as well as the amusement park and

7 travels all the way back to the zoo and back to the

8 main house.

9 Q. BY MR. SANGER: So you can do a round trip

10 from down near the main house and come back?

11 A. Exactly.

12 Q. By the way, when you mention the golden

13 gates, let me just ask, is that the gate that’s

14 black with gold on top of it?

15 A. It is, the secondary gate.

16 Q. The big fancy Neverland gate, right?

17 A. Exactly.

18 Q. Is that gate locked?

19 A. I’m sorry?

20 Q. Is that gate locked?

21 A. No.

22 Q. If — if you’re driving in a vehicle,

23 anywhere from a golf cart, to a car, to an SUV, to a

24 truck, is there an automatic trip to open it?

25 A. There is.

26 Q. So it doesn’t require anybody to give

27 approval or manually do anything, correct?

28 A. The only thing that — bicycles, it doesn’t 9640

1 pick up bicycles or motorcycles.

2 Q. All right. As far as — and then there is a

3 manual way to open it —

4 A. There is.

5 Q. — for a motorcycle.

6 And is there a way around the gate if you

7 were on foot?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Or on a bicycle, for that matter?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So that gate does not effectively lock

12 anybody in so they can’t get out; is that right?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now, the main gate is about how far from the

15 golden gate?

16 A. It’s probably a half — a quarter to a half

17 a mile.

18 Q. So you go down a road, and you end up down

19 at Figueroa Mountain Road by the main gate, correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that gate is operated by the guard, the

22 security officer who’s posted at the gate; is that

23 correct?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. And that’s both for coming in and going out,

26 the guard will open the gates?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Adjacent to the gate is what kind of 9641

1 fencing?

2 A. It’s a three-rail split, split three-rail

3 fence.

4 Q. Split-rail, kind of rough wood fence?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. There’s nothing to prevent somebody from

7 going over it or going through the bars?

8 A. No.

9 Q. All right. You were talking about the

10 trains. The other train on the property is what

11 kind of train?

12 A. It’s a refurbished steam train locomotive.

13 Q. Was it at one time a working train?

14 A. I believe it was.

15 Q. Okay. And so that’s on bigger tracks?

16 A. Yes. 36-gauge.

17 Q. I’m sorry?

18 A. 36-gauge.

19 Q. All right. And those tracks go from where

20 to where?

21 A. From just adjacent to the main house where

22 the train depot is on the hill, to the — to the zoo

23 area also, and then there’s a turn-around at both

24 ends.

25 Q. All right. So instead of doing a loop or a

26 round trip, that one you have to do a turn-around?

27 A. No, it’s a loop at both ends.

28 Q. Oh, it is a loop? 9642

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. I’m sorry. So you could do a round

3 trip by sitting on it and doing a loop back?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. You mentioned the train depot being

6 up on the hill, correct?

7 A. That’s correct.

8 Q. If you are facing the house from the parking

9 lot — or I shouldn’t say “parking lot,” but from

10 the parking area, the driveway right in front, and

11 you’re standing facing the front door, what

12 direction are you facing? North, east, south or

13 west, if you know, or some variation?

14 A. East.

15 Q. You’re facing east?

16 A. From the door of the train depot?

17 Q. No, I’m sorry, the main house. If you’re

18 standing in front of the door —

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. — you’re about to knock on the door – okay? –

21 what direction are you pointed?

22 A. North, or northwest is the train depot.

23 Q. Okay. You’re facing the house, you’re

24 facing north?

25 A. North.

26 Q. Facing north. So the train depot —

27 A. Is west.

28 Q. — is west. That’s to your left, okay. 9643

1 So the train depot — what’s in the train

2 depot?

3 A. There’s artwork, pictures of trains.

4 Small-scale trains. There’s some Disney characters.

5 Some of the old — there’s an old violin. There’s

6 also just a lot of different neat little artwork for

7 people to look at.

8 Q. All right. I was going to say this is

9 someplace where visitors are often taken or allowed

10 to go —

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. — to see things?

13 A. There’s candy and there’s video games, and

14 it’s a working train depot.

15 Q. All right. So it — it looks almost like a

16 museum inside, wouldn’t you say?

17 A. Yes.

Next, Marcus describes the numerous indoor and outdoor clocks at Neverland; this was an obvious attempt to further discredit the Arvizo’s claims that they were not allowed to know what time it was during their “captivity” at Neverland:

2 Q. All right. Are there any clocks at

3 Neverland?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. More than one or two?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. About how many clocks do you think there are

8 at Neverland?

9 A. Interior or exterior?

10 Q. Let’s take exterior first.

11 A. Six. Five or six.

12 Q. Okay. Let’s start with the clock that’s on

13 the hill just to the west of the guest units.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And we’ve had a picture of it here in court.

16 It looks like it has flowers around it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you have any idea how big that clock is?

19 Anybody ever measure it?

20 A. I don’t know that off the top of my head.

21 Q. In any event, can you see this clock in the

22 front of the house?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you see it from where the guest units

25 are?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. Okay. And is that clock generally right?

28 A. Yes. 9648

1 Q. Okay. It’s maintained by somebody in the

2 clock department, I take it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Or somebody in the maintenance department;

5 is that right?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. Now, right up on top of the hill next to the

8 big flower clock that you can see there is also a

9 big clock on a stand, is there not?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And if you’re in the area of the train

12 station, can you see that clock?

13 A. You can.

14 Q. The — down by the little train, that was

15 the big train station. Going down to the little

16 train station, which is just across the bridge from

17 the main house, is there also a clock?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And can you describe that?

20 A. It’s a two-face — you can see it from the

21 south as well as the north side. There’s two faces

22 on it. It’s a hanging clock, about two feet in

23 diameter.

24 Q. All right. So it’s a big clock?

25 A. Yeah, two to three feet.

26 Q. Now, let’s just take the year 2003, from

27 February to March. Were both sides of that clock

28 working? 9649

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Subsequent to that time, did one side of

3 that clock stop working?

4 A. It’s a possibility. I don’t recall.

5 Q. Are both sides working now?

6 A. I believe so.

7 Q. All right. There’s also another clock

8 directly behind the house; is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. It’s on like a lamppost?

11 A. Right out the back door, yes.

12 Q. And is that a big clock?

13 A. It’s fairly big.

14 Q. All right. When you say right outside the

15 back door, can you explain where it is with relation

16 to the back door of the residence where people might

17 go in and out of the kitchen and eating areas?

18 A. If you were walking out the back door

19 towards the arcade, you would pass it on your left,

20 as well as if you were coming from the arcade going

21 towards the guest units you would also pass it.

22 Q. Pretty much if you go out the back door and

23 look over there, you can see it; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Then — did I cover six clocks? I’m not

26 sure. Is there another clock I missed?

27 A. There’s another clock on top of the train

28 depot, on the roof. 9650

1 Q. Okay. Are there any clocks out at the

2 amusement park?

3 A. There is, a four-face clock at the amusement

4 park.

5 Q. Okay. Now, other than those outside clocks,

6 are there also clocks inside the house?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Are there clocks inside the house in the

9 areas where the ranch guests can see them?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us, in the area — the dining

12 area where there’s a bar, dining bar, and people can

13 sit there right adjacent to the kitchen, are there

14 any clocks that were visible from that vantage

15 point?

16 A. I believe there’s four that are visible from

17 that — from the bar area.

18 Q. Okay. Are there other clocks in the living

19 room and other main parts of the house?

20 A. Yes.

Next, Marcus was asked to describe the numerous positions that he held during his tenure at Neverland:

21 Q. All right. Now, I took you back to — back

22 to before Mr. Jackson bought the property and just

23 up to the point that you had gone to work there, or

24 switched your employment to Mr. Jackson’s company or

25 his employment.

26 What jobs did you have over the years from

27 the time that you started to now that you’re ranch

28 manager? 9651

1 A. I’ve worked in the maintenance department as

2 well as security.

3 Q. So tell us about maintenance, to start with,

4 briefly. Is that the first job you had was in

5 maintenance?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What did you do?

8 A. Maintaining anything from electrical to

9 plumbing, lighting, just the whole gauntlet of

10 maintaining the property.

11 Q. All right. So as ranch manager now, you’ve

12 got a pretty good idea of what it means if you tell

13 somebody to go do something, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Probably done it yourself?

16 A. Most likely.

17 Q. All right. And how long did you do that

18 before you went into security?

19 A. A couple of years.

20 Q. So that would have been about when to when?

21 A. ‘89 to ‘92 or so. ‘91 or ‘92, I believe.

22 Q. All right. And then you started in

23 security, and what was your position?

24 A. Officer.

25 Q. And did you work shifts like everybody else?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. All right. How long were you an officer in

28 security? 9652

1 A. Five years.

2 Q. Okay. So somewhere in the mid ‘90s you

3 ceased being an officer?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What did you do after that?

6 A. Went back to maintenance. I couldn’t stand

7 the shifts.

8 Q. I couldn’t hear you.

9 A. I couldn’t stand the shifts.

10 Q. Okay. So maintenance was a little more

11 regular?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. And how long were you in

14 maintenance?

15 A. A couple more years.

16 Q. And then what did you do?

17 A. Then I’ve been in this position since then.

18 Q. So you became ranch manager. And when did

19 you become ranch manager?

20 A. In 2002.

21 Q. All right. Now, based on your experience at

22 the ranch, are you familiar with the operations of

23 all the different departments?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do the department heads for all the

26 different departments report to you?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. Who makes the daily decisions as to — let 9653

1 me withdraw it and take out the word “daily.”

2 Who makes the decisions in general as to

3 what the policies will be in the various

4 departments?

5 A. Ultimately it would rest on my shoulders.

6 Q. All right. You go to Mr. Jackson and ask

7 him to approve the various policies and procedures

8 that you’re putting into place on the ranch?

9 A. Sometimes. It depends on what it is.

10 Q. If there’s something that particularly

11 impacts Mr. Jackson personally, you would do that?

12 A. Yes, definitely.

13 Q. Otherwise, you have the authority, as ranch

14 manager, to make sure that everybody does their job

15 and to — your job is to run things; is that right?

16 A. That’s correct.

17 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; leading.

18 MR. SANGER: It was. I’ll withdraw it.

19 Q. With regard to each one of the departments,

20 what is your function as to the particular

21 departments?

22 A. Overseeing that the job is completed in a

23 timely fashion on a daily basis.

24 Q. Do you have meetings?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Do you have meetings with all the department

27 heads sometimes?

28 A. Yes. 9654

1 Q. And do you have meetings with individual

2 department heads from time to time?

3 A. That’s correct.

4 Q. Do you generally deal with the various

5 employees at the lower levels of the hierarchy? Do

6 you deal with them directly or do you tend to deal

7 through their chain of command?

8 A. A little bit of both.

9 Q. All right. So you — certainly you talk to

10 people, employees?

11 A. Definitely.

Marcus was questioned about his recollection of the 1993 raid on Neverland, and denied ever witnessing any abuse by Jackson:

12 Q. All right. Now, you were aware in 1993 that

13 there had been a search of the ranch by the Los

14 Angeles Police Department; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And there was an investigation by the Los

17 Angeles Police Department at that time; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And at some point Mr. Sneddon’s office and

21 the sheriff’s department got involved in an

22 investigation in the ‘93 time period; is that right?

23 A. I don’t recall, but I believe so.

24 Q. Okay. You had contact primarily with Los

25 Angeles police officers at that time?

26 A. I don’t recall.

27 Q. You were interviewed by police officers,

28 either of Los Angeles or Santa Barbara; is that 9655

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did you cooperate with the officers at

4 that time?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And at the time, in 1993, that you were

7 interviewed by police officers you were still

8 working as a security officer at that time; is that

9 right?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. So you had given us some approximate dates,

12 but does that — that’s within the time period that

13 you had been a police — a security guard, correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And at the time you were contacted by law

16 enforcement, had you seen anything at the ranch that

17 was either inappropriate or illegal?

18 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; foundation.

19 THE COURT: Sustained.

20 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Okay. During the time that

21 you were a security guard, you had an opportunity to

22 observe activities at the ranch, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you had gate logs back then, right?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. And you had interaction with other security

27 guards, correct?

28 A. Correct. 9656

1 Q. And you had interaction with your

2 supervisors?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. If you saw anything illegal, it was your job

5 to report it to a supervisor; is that correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; leading.

8 THE COURT: Overruled.

9 MR. SANGER: The — the answer was in, Your

10 Honor?

11 THE COURT: Yes.

12 MR. SANGER: Okay. Thank you.

13 Q. Did you observe, during the time you were a

14 security guard in the ‘90s, anything that caused you

15 to report an illegal activity?

16 A. No.

17 Q. During the time in the ‘90s up until the

18 time that you were interviewed in 1993 by whatever

19 law enforcement agency it was, did you have occasion

20 to see Mr. Jackson interact with his guests?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How often would you see that?

23 A. If he was home, probably daily.

24 Q. All right.

25 A. If he was out and about.

26 Q. Other times when Mr. Jackson would be on

27 tour, and would not be there; is that correct?

28 A. Yes. 9657

1 Q. Or he might be staying someplace else for

2 some other reason, correct?

3 A. That’s true.

4 Q. During the, let’s say, ‘92, ‘93 period, in

5 that general area, how often was Mr. Jackson at the

6 ranch; do you recall?

7 A. I don’t recall. I believe he was on tour at

8 that point, but I don’t — I’m not 100 percent.

9 Q. Did he come back to the ranch from time to

10 time during the tour?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And so you had occasion to see him there

13 between ‘92 and ‘93, correct?

14 A. I believe so.

15 Q. All right. And you saw him interact with

16 guests; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you ever see him do anything

19 inappropriate with regard to any guests, adults or

20 children?

21 A. No.

22 Q. If you had seen anything inappropriate,

23 would you have reported it or taken it up with your

24 supervisor?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. Okay. Now, after the — after that period

27 of time, you understood there was an investigation,

28 and after that period of time you continued to work 9658

1 at the ranch, correct?

2 A. Yes.

When asked about his recollections of the Arvizo family’s stay at Neverland, Marcus testified that they seemed happy there and didn’t exhibit any signs of wanting to leave, or being held there against their will:

3 Q. And eventually when you became the ranch

4 manager in 2002, it was part of your job to

5 supervise the security and fire department, correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. You were aware that you had a security

8 officer by the name of Brian Barron; is that right?

9 A. That’s correct.

10 Q. Were you aware that he was a sworn peace

11 officer?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And Violet Silva was the chief of security

14 at the time you became ranch manager; is that right?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Okay. And had you known Violet Silva the

17 entire time that she had worked there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you have a good working relationship

20 with Violet Silva?

21 A. I believe so, yes.

22 Q. Okay. Did you feel that you had open

23 communications both ways; that she could talk to

24 you, you could talk to her about any concerns?

25 A. Yes.

26 Q. All right. Now, at some point, the Arvizo

27 family came to stay at Neverland Ranch; is that

28 correct? 9659

1 A. That’s correct.

2 Q. And what do you recall about your first

3 contact with the Arvizo family?

4 A. I believe they were — my very first contact

5 was when Gavin was ill with cancer.

6 Q. Okay. And who was there at the ranch with

7 Gavin?

8 A. I believe his mother and his father and his

9 two siblings.

10 Q. All right. Do you recall having any

11 particular interaction with Janet Arvizo?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you recall having any particular

14 interaction with any of the Arvizos —

15 A. On their first.

16 Q. — on the first visit.

17 A. No. Just seeing them there. That was it.

18 Q. Were the — did you see Mr. Jackson with the

19 Arvizos?

20 A. If they were out and about. Possibly.

21 Q. All right. Now, after that first visit, did

22 you have occasion to see any of the Arvizos again?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what’s your next recollection of the

25 Arvizos?

26 A. My last recollection?

27 Q. Your next. In other words, when did you see

28 them? You don’t have to take them one by one. But 9660

1 did you see the Arvizos again?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And after the first visit, who came with the

4 Arvizo children?

5 A. I believe it was just the mother. The

6 mother and the children.

7 Q. Okay. The next time you recall seeing them,

8 the mother was there?

9 A. They came with Chris Tucker once or twice.

10 Q. Were any parents with them when they came

11 with Chris Tucker?

12 A. Not always.

13 Q. So you recall them being there with Chris

14 Tucker, maybe parents. And then do you recall the

15 mother being there again before or after the Chris

16 Tucker visits?

17 A. Before and after.

18 Q. All right. Now, at some point — well,

19 let’s put it this way. In February and March of

20 2003, do you recall the Arvizos being there?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. And during that time period, do you

23 recall who was with the Arvizo children for the most

24 part?

25 A. Sometimes they were by themselves.

26 Sometimes they were with their mother.

27 Q. The father wasn’t around during this period

28 of time? 9661

1 A. No.

2 Q. During that period of time, did you see

3 anything that suggested that the — any of the

4 Arvizos were being held against their will?

5 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’ll object. Foundation.

6 THE COURT: Sustained.

7 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Okay. During February and

8 March of 2003, did you see the Arvizos there on the

9 property?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you see the Arvizo kids out and about on

12 the property?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What did you see Gavin and Star, the two

15 boys, doing?

16 A. Do you mean besides just out having fun,

17 just —

18 Q. Let’s start with that. Were they out having

19 fun?

20 A. They appeared to be having fun.

21 Q. Did you see them doing anything else besides

22 out having fun?

23 A. They were a little destructive at times.

24 Q. All right. Did you see at any time during

25 February and March 2003, anything that suggested

26 that the Arvizo children wanted to leave and were

27 not being allowed to leave?

28 A. No. 9662

1 Q. Okay. They seemed to be happy to be there?

2 A. They did.

3 Q. You said they were a little destructive.

4 Can you give me an example of what you’re talking

5 about?

6 A. Well, they just — they didn’t respect

7 property, if you will, from golf carts to — I know

8 that they defaced a few areas on the property, wrote

9 some graffiti, if you will, and just not very

10 respectful.

11 Q. Did you see Janet Arvizo on the property in

12 February and March of 2003?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you see her outside of the buildings

15 from time to time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what did you see her doing?

18 A. She seemed to just be enjoying herself.

19 Q. Did you see her talking with other people?

20 A. Other people —

21 Q. Other — talking with anybody, I suppose.

22 A. Yeah.

23 Q. Do you recall in particular any particular

24 individuals she was talking with?

25 A. With the housekeeping staff or with the

26 chefs, Dieter Weizner.

27 Q. When you saw her — I’ll come back to that

28 in one second. When you saw her talking with the 9663

1 chefs, did you see her inside the house?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, you were in and out of the house

4 yourself; is that correct?

5 A. That’s correct.

6 Q. And you had the combination to the doors in

7 the house; is that right?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. You had the combination to Mr. Jackson’s

10 private room?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. If you were going to go into Mr. Jackson’s

13 private rooms, I should say plural, go into his

14 suite, as we’re calling it, would you knock first?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And how did you regard that part of the

17 house?

18 A. How did I regard it? It was his space. His

19 bedroom.

20 Q. All right. Were people allowed to just —

21 randomly allowed to go in and out of his space?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. Now, was everybody that could get in

24 the house, were they allowed to go into his space?

25 A. No, not unless they were invited, but —

26 Q. So if you had guests who were staying

27 overnight at the ranch, would they be allowed to

28 come into the house? 9664

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And in what part of the house did they come

3 into?

4 A. Mainly the house was open. It was

5 downstairs. Other than his area.

6 Q. All right. So they’d be allowed to come in

7 the kitchen area, the —

8 A. Living room.

9 Q. The family room?

10 A. The library.

11 Q. The dining area?

12 A. Uh-huh.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. There’s a crafts room upstairs.

15 Q. All right. And did people often come in and

16 hang out in that family room/kitchen area?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Now, you said that you saw Janet

19 talking with, I think you said the cooks; is that

20 correct?

21 A. That’s correct.

22 Q. Could you see her inside the house?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And where did you see her?

25 A. In the dining or kitchen area.

26 Q. Did you see her having meals or just sitting

27 and talking, or what did you see?

28 A. Both. 9665

1 Q. All right. Did you see her sitting at the

2 bar?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You mentioned that you saw her talking with

5 Dieter Weizner?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where were the two of them when they were

8 talking to each other?

9 A. In the breezeway, in between the main house

10 and the office or arcade area.

11 Q. Okay. Did you see her talking with Mr.

12 Weizner in the kitchen or family room area at any

13 time?

14 A. I don’t recall.

15 Q. May have, but you don’t recall?

16 A. No.

17 Q. All right. Did Janet Arvizo ever seem in

18 any way to you, from what you saw, to want to leave

19 the ranch and she was not allowed to do so?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did she ever complain to you about anything?

22 A. Never.

Here is Marcus’ explanation of the shopping trip to Solvang that he took the Arvizos on; he did not “guard” them during the trip, or do anything to restrain them in any way. In fact, Marcus testified that he mostly stayed in the car while they were out and about!

23 Q. Now, is the — let me withdraw that.

24 Did you ever arrange for transportation for

25 any of the Arvizos to and from any locations outside

26 the ranch?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. What arrangements did you make? 9666

1 A. If it was a phone call, to call for a car

2 service, or I personally took them on more than one

3 occasion off property.

4 Q. Where did you personally take them?

5 A. I — actually, once, shopping in Solvang.

6 Q. Okay.

7 A. And —

8 Q. Now, when you went shopping in Solvang –

9 let’s take that, first of all – who went with you?

10 A. Janet Arvizo, and I believe it was just the

11 two boys.

12 Q. Okay. And do you know where Davellin was?

13 A. I don’t.

14 Q. Okay. So Janet Arvizo and the two boys went

15 shopping in Solvang. You drove them; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what vehicle did you drive, if you

18 recall? Let’s put it this way, was it a ranch

19 vehicle?

20 A. Yes, it was one of the cars. I’m not sure

21 exactly which one.

22 Q. Now, were you to guard them?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you restrain them in any way?

25 A. No.

26 Q. Did you prevent them from using the

27 telephone?

28 A. No. 9667

1 Q. Did you prevent them from talking to

2 anybody?

3 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: I’m going to object as to

4 relevancy. It’s irrelevant unless time is

5 established.

6 MR. SANGER: I don’t know about that. But

7 it’s a good point. I can establish the time.

8 Q. What time was this?

9 A. It was in the afternoon. Do you mean the

10 date?

11 Q. Yeah. Was it in —

12 A. It was around that — 2003, in February or

13 March. I’m not exactly sure when.

14 Q. Somewhere in the February, March time

15 period? Okay. And — all right. So you took them

16 into Solvang shopping. Did you stand there and

17 watch over them while they were shopping?

18 A. No, it was mainly just transportation. I

19 was actually at the car while they were out and

20 about.

21 Q. So you drove them. You stayed at the car

22 and they went shopping?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you in general — if Janet wanted to go

25 somewhere, Janet Arvizo, would she request someone

26 to drive her?

27 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; hearsay.

28 THE COURT: Overruled. 9668

1 THE WITNESS: Yes. She didn’t actually come

2 with a vehicle, so —

3 Q. BY MR. SANGER: So you would then make

4 arrangements for her transportation; is that

5 correct?

6 A. That’s correct.

7 Q. And on this particular occasion, you decided

8 just to do it yourself?

9 A. Yeah, I believe so.

10 Q. All right. Now, during this shopping trip,

11 about how long did it last; do you recall?

12 A. Less than an hour.

13 Q. Did you tell them, “You’ve got to go back to

14 the ranch,” or were they just through shopping?

15 A. No, they just came back to the car and were

16 ready to go.

17 Q. All right. Do you recall what kind of

18 stores they went to, or —

19 A. I was at the car.

20 Q. All right. And you drove them back to the

21 ranch?

22 A. Yes.

Marcus was questioned about taking the Arvizos to see a dentist, and their demeanor before and after they left his office. They never complained on their way there, and were excited to be returning to Neverland. Court adjourned for the day after this line of questioning:

23 Q. Now, was there ever a time when Janet Arvizo

24 was followed by a positive PR film crew of Michael

25 Jackson?

26 A. I don’t know.

27 Q. On that occasion, nobody followed you to

28 take photographs of Janet Arvizo shopping with her 9669

1 kids, as far as you know, right?

2 A. Not to my knowledge.

3 Q. Did you see anybody meeting any description

4 like that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Didn’t see any film cameras or crews or

7 anything, correct?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, you said there was a shopping event.

10 Was there another event where you either took them

11 or went to pick them up or had something to do with

12 their transportation?

13 A. Yes, I met them at a orthodontist, a local

14 orthodontist in Solvang.

15 Q. All right. Excuse me just one second.

16 Do you remember the name of the

17 orthodontist?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what was her name?

20 A. Jean Seamont.

21 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, may I put — let me

22 just make sure. This is in evidence. It’s 5020.

23 And may I publish that?

24 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: May I take a look at that?

25 MR. SANGER: It’s this whole series here.

26 You can take a look at them. There are some that

27 weren’t received.

28 Q. That’s the sign in front of her office, 9670

1 right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And where is her office located?

4 A. It’s right off of 246 and First Street

5 possibly.

6 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, I’d like to have

7 marked for identification, it’s been premarked as

8 5030, a map.

9 THE COURT: All right.

10 MR. SANGER: And I’d like to approach the

11 witness, if I may.

12 THE COURT: All right.

13 MR. SANGER: May I just stand here and speak

14 loud for a couple questions?

15 THE COURT: All right.

16 MR. SANGER: Thank you.

17 Q. As you look at that, does that appear to be

18 a map of the Solvang area?

19 A. It does.

20 Q. Does that appear to have a star on it at or

21 near where Dr. Seamont’s office is located?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. Does that accurately depict the area?

24 A. It does.

25 MR. SANGER: Your Honor, I’d move admittance

26 of 5030.

27 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: No objection.

28 THE COURT: It’s admitted. 9671

1 MR. SANGER: May I publish it?

2 THE COURT: Yes.

3 MR. SANGER: Thank you.

4 Q. This appears to be a commercially prepared

5 map of some sort; is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. But where the little star — okay, there’s a

8 star. It’s a little more visible on the document

9 than it is on the overhead here, but the little star

10 that I’m circling, is that the approximate location

11 of Dr. Seamont’s office?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And I think everybody knows, but just in

14 case, 246 goes right through the middle of Solvang;

15 is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And Buellton’s out thataway?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And Santa Ynez is out thataway. “Thataway”

20 being to the right of the picture, the second

21 “thataway,” all right.

22 Now, is this doctor’s office pretty much

23 right on the corner — not “right on the corner,”

24 but very close to the corner of Fifth Street and

25 246?

26 A. I believe there’s one building in front of

27 it, but, yes, it’s very close to the corner.

28 Q. And I’d like to go through this series of 9672

1 pictures. There are some that were not admitted and

2 I’m not going to refer to those. We’ll start with

3 5020, which I just had up on the board.

4 All right. I’m going to put up 5021. Does

5 that appear to be the front of Dr. Seamont’s office?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the — 246, the main drag in Solvang,

8 you said there’s like a building in between the two.

9 It would be over this way to the left; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And I’m going to put up now 5022 and ask

13 you, if you’re standing in the front of Dr.

14 Seamont’s office, if that would be the — what I was

15 calling the main drag, 246, that goes through

16 Solvang?

17 A. That’s correct.

18 Q. That’s the street where you go 25 miles an

19 hour?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. Did you go inside Dr. Seamont’s

22 office?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I’m going to put up 5024, and ask you, does

25 that appear to be the reception area?

26 A. Yes.

27 Q. And when you said — I think you said you

28 went to pick them up. So they were already there 9673

1 when you got there?

2 A. No, I actually met them there.

3 Q. You met them there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were they with anybody when you — anybody

6 from the ranch when you —

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who were they with?

9 A. Vinnie dropped them off.

10 Q. Okay. When you say “dropped them off,” what

11 was — what was the story?

12 A. He brought them to this location. And I met

13 them there to transport them back to the property.

14 Q. Okay. Had they just arrived at the doctor’s

15 office?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Did you meet them out in front

18 of the building or —

19 A. I did.

20 Q. Where did you meet them?

21 A. On the street.

22 Q. The street we just saw?

23 A. Exactly.

24 Q. So let’s go back to that really quickly.

25 If I may, Your Honor, 5022.

26 So right out there?

27 A. Right where that red car is.

28 Q. And did Vinnie have a car there? 9674

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were they in the car when you got there?

3 A. Actually, no. I was there first.

4 Q. Okay. So you were there waiting for them?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when they showed up, what happened?

7 A. He left, and I escorted them into the place

8 of business.

9 Q. Were you there to guard them?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Were you there to keep them from talking to

12 anybody?

13 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; leading.

14 THE COURT: Sustained.

15 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Did you have any

16 instructions from anybody to restrict their behavior

17 in any way?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you — were there telephones in the

20 office?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you go — what did you do after you —

23 you meet them on the street and then what happened?

24 Just tell us what happened.

25 A. Walked in, introduced them to the doctor.

26 And I waited in the waiting room. And Mrs. Arvizo

27 and the two children were — went into the — not

28 operating room, but the – 9675

1 Q. It seems like an operating room, but —

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If you don’t like dental work.

4 So you never went back into the back?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you know Dr. Seamont before that?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Were you sitting in the front room to guard

9 the door so they couldn’t leave?

10 MR. AUCHINCLOSS: Objection; leading.

11 THE COURT: Overruled.

12 THE WITNESS: No.

13 Q. BY MR. SANGER: Do you know if there was a

14 back way out of the office?

15 A. I’m sure there was. I didn’t actually see

16 it.

17 Q. Did — how long did the Arvizo family stay

18 at the dental office?

19 A. It was probably an hour to — no more than

20 an hour and 20 minutes.

21 Q. What did you do during that hour, hour and

22 20 minutes?

23 A. Read magazines.

24 Q. Okay. When they were through at the office,

25 or they were through in the back doing whatever they

26 were doing, did you meet them in the reception room?

27 A. Yes.

28 Q. And where did you go from there? 9676

1 A. Drove them back to the property.

2 Q. Did they complain about getting in the car?

3 A. No. It was raining quite heavily, so they

4 were running to get to the car.

5 Q. Okay. At any time while you were with them

6 during that period of time, this dental visit, did

7 any of them ever cry out for help?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you see anybody use the phone to call

10 for help?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you hear anybody ask for help from

13 anyone?

14 A. Not to my knowledge.

15 Q. Was there anything about their attitude or

16 demeanor that made you think that any of the Arvizos

17 were unwilling to be there or unwilling to go back

18 to the ranch?

19 A. No, they were excited to be there.

20 MR. SANGER: Okay. This might be a good

21 place to take a break, if it’s all right, Your Honor.

22 THE COURT: We’ll take our afternoon recess.

23 See you in the morning. Remember it will be a half

24 day tomorrow.

25 (The proceedings adjourned at 2:30 p.m.)

To be continued…..